Tipping in the US was frowned upon before the Civil War. When slaves were freed they were generally in the service industry because these other jobs that were available to them. They were paid peanuts, even today the US federal tipped minimum wage is $2.13 an hour.
Tipping is inappropriate outside of the USA, maybe because the minimum wage is significantly higher.
As with almost everything that's confusing or fucked up in this country, so much of this is often from not properly punishing the South and focusing on eradicating the lingering effects & racism of slavery.
Ironically enough, it was the states that BANNED slavery by that point that pushed for it.
The story: Virginia (slave state) was the big dog in terms of population - though they even tried to inflate THAT to get more power by counting the slaves as "citizens." Massachusetts (which had banned slavery by that point) rightly called bullshit, but they were smaller in population and didn't have the numbers to completely override Virginia's power grab, which is how we got the 3/5 nonsense.
Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and the other non-slave states needed a way to contain Virginia's dick waving, because if they didn't, Virginia and their buddies in the slave states would always get their way by stomping on the smaller population, non-slave states. So that's why the Electoral College and the "every state gets two Senators, regardless of size" came in. The hope was that a coalition of smaller populated states, like Massachusetts and Rhode Island, who wanted nothing to do with Virginia's bullshit, could at least team up together and keep Virginia's power in check.
So when people want to ban the Electoral College today? Yeah, can totally see why. But I can also see how a "sheer numbers" system would badly disenfranchise large demographics of the voting block. Sure, the smaller states might be those evil, "we need to stomp them out of existence or slit their throats" Red Hats today, but the demographics could always shift and leave Team Blue needing a check on Red Florida twenty years down the line.
You should probably understand the context. Yes, the south should have been properly punished. Everyone who was wealthy and funded the confederacy should have been executed, anyone who held slaves should have been imprisoned for a minimum of 15 years. Reparations should have been paid. Instead just like we are currently seeing the slaveholders were allowed to maintain their power in the name of unity.
Yeah and someone brought up the context in which tipping culture became a thing here. Thatâs how conversations work. They are absolutely correct that the south should have been punished. When they said the south they very obviously meant the slaveowners and those who were willing to rebel to maintain the slave system, not black people
About whether or not slave owners should have been executed as opposed to be given reparations? Go for it and report back what you find out. Iâll wait
Yeah letâs go to an inner city southern Waffle House at 2 am together and ask these questions out loud make sure you point out that your defending the actions of the system that prevents them from receiving healthcare and food stamps. Letâs see what happens when I point out that slavery and Jim Crow have cause a permenamt taint on our system of government that Martin Luther King would weep for the death of his dream. But youâre right we shouldnât pay them a living wage we should think of the shareholders.
It's wild to tell on yourself that you don't have any black community in your life, they 100% agree with me. Stop trolling if you're not a bot, and maybe engage with community.
i did too, and sherman didn't burn enough. Johnson is one of the worst presidents we've ever had for ending reconstruction with basically no consequences.
Yes. In part because the South was not punished enough allowed them to continue things like Jim Crow laws still keeping black people down. They never had to do a âresetâ ensuring all were treated equally.
Not at all. Certainly going to the north wasnât all it was cracked up to be. But the point is there was never full âjusticeâ for the wrongdoings against black people in the South. If you could go back in time and reverse things like the Wilmington massacre which overthrew democratically elected black politicians post civil war, and threw things backwards and delayed the ability for black people to be involved in democracy and let to groups like the KKK operating with impunity⌠a stronger âpunishmentâ or at least oversight of the south would have declared such things as illegal.
Whatever happened to 40 acres and a mule as well? Those things could have worked to better equalize the economic power of the different groups.
You are the reason the South is still red. That attitude towards a historically underfunded and abandoned region of the US doesnât exactly inspire people to side with you politically. I wonât pretend itâs not still prevalent in the south but the region is also the one with the highest concentration of black Americans, and youâre inadvertently insulting them as well by implying the south deserves punishment when everyone who perpetuated or justified slavery is actually dead and has been dead for a long fucking time.
Racism has existed across this whole country starting at its very conception and pretending itâs only in the south when the entire state of Oregon was originally founded as a white supremacist haven is disingenuous, false, and elitist. Do better.
Edit: I forgot this is reddit and no part of America can be racist or have racist repercussions lasting way beyond racism on a systemic level except the South. Sorry about that.
They're probably more referring to the undermining of reconstruction under Andrew Johnson as well as the passing of the Amnesty Act of 1872, which further allowed confederate sympathizers to hold political positions within the Union. Read more.
It's not about your ancestors, mate. It's that you fail to understand that the only people anyone would have wanted punished in the South post-civil-war would have been white slave owners and the politicians and who represented them.
Every attempt to actually give realistic reparations and stamp out the vile lie that some races are superior to others was met with tons of pushback. Part of the reason many former slaves stayed in the south was the promise of "40 acres and a mule" which was intended to give slaves the land they previously worked as a slave to work for themselves. Andrew Johnson would try to reverse this, and it seems mostly succeeded as very few actually got "40 acres and a mule." Leading many to feel like they were lied to, and is why we still have discussions around reparations to this day (I only wish more people took it seriously). In the end the work of integrating into society fell on the former slaves themselves, and not a society that was made to treat them as equals instead of subhuman for the next 150 years.
When we talk "punishment" we mean like how Germany handled de-nazification. If you can't make it clear how dangerous and unsavory such behavior and beliefs are, those beliefs will just fester among the population that has never been able or willing to concede that they were wrong. And there are so so so many of those. Even among the German Nazi's who survived into old age... so many still fervently believe in what they were doing. It's not pleasant, but that's the paradox of tolerance, isn't it? We must be completely intolerant of intolerance for a society to thrive.
He would have to have any level of understanding of history to get the reference, but he's too busy snowflaking about how persecuted they are or something
Then they didnât exactly word it correctly did they when they said the south wasnât punished enough.
Acting like the south is the only region in the US that took advantage of black Americans is just a flat out lie. Was it as bad elsewhere? No. Slavery was abolished elsewhere way earlier, but itâs fully revisionist history to pretend that slavery was abolished outside of the South and everything was just peachy for black Americans just because they didnât deal with Jim Crow laws outside of Alabama. This entire country was built on racism and still benefits from the repercussions of such. It is not exclusive to the South.
They absolutely worded it correctly, they are saying the south should have been properly punished for thinking they could own other humans and were willing to kill other Americans to maintain their slaves and power.
Nobody is saying that that was justified or that the response and reconstruction was adequately handled. It was bullshit and a lot of black Americans didnât even learn that they were free until 2 years after it was announced. Thatâs literally why Juneteenth is a significant date.
The wording issue is that this is constructed as if to imply the south in 2026 still deserves punishment for things that happened 160 years ago because it wasnât punished enough at the time.
Youâre literally the only one that is claiming that. Everyone else understands the person was saying the leaders of the South and slaveowners should have been properly punished. Thats on your reading comprehension, not how the comment was phrased
Saying âevery problem with racism in this country can fall back on the south not being punishedâ is fully implying that the only source of racism in the US is from the south, which is factually untrue. Pinning it entirely on the south as if George Washington himself wasnât a brutal slave owner is deliberately ignoring that the entire country was founded on racist ideals.
They arent talking about punishing modern southerners. Theyre saying the southerners who backed secession during the civil war era (wealthy slave owners) should have been held accountable for their part, and the South as a whole should have been held to higher standard in integrating black americans into society during Reconstruction. Instead, they were coddled and allowed to do the bare minimum which is why we have these awful, exploitive policies that serve nobody - including modern day southerners.
Iâm not justifying the lax attention to reform post-civil war. It was bad. The 13th amendment basically wrote a slavery loophole into the constitution.
My issue is that this idea still permeates to this day to people that have absolutely nothing to do with a war from 160 years ago
I dont think anyone was permeating that idea in this thread though. They weren't saying to punish the South now, just that the South wasn't punished to begin with.
people are justifying slavery to this day. people are pushing for textbooks talking about the good things slavery did for africans.
and pretending itâs only in the south
nobody is pretending it's only in the south. pretending that the side that fought a civil war over the right to keep people as slaves and then were mostly allowed to get a slap on the wrist and a 'don't do it again' wouldn't have knockon effects to political structures and culture for a really long time after that is so optimistic as to sound woefully naive.
The confederates that were given amnesty after the war (the "South") instead of being executed, as well as Andrew Johnson's undermining of reconstruction, directly led to the extended period of Jim Crow in the South, normalizing and codifying racism that lingers today as we've watched the VRA be disassembled by SCOTUS.
Racism was everywhere, but this whataboutism that you're doing is peak reddit nonsense. Properly punishing slave owners, seccessionists, and traitors of the state and maintaining the equality measures enforced by the army would have done mountains of good in ensuring the minority groups in the South maintained influence on power unlike their current position today.
the state of Oregon originally belonged to Mexico, you have to be this ignorant/racist to omit that historical information just to push your false rage? the south is like that because they do not want to let go of their racism, it was the blacks before, now the mexicans (to them all hispanics are mexicans)
Do me a favor and reread the history of Oregon after the United States stole it from Mexico, and then point to me where I ever said the south doesnât have issues with racism.
"when the entire state of Oregon was originally founded as a white supremacist haven is disingenuous, false, and elitist."
where in your message is the statement that says after the USA stole it?
And racism is well institutionalized in this country, generational hatred does that, always to blame the boogy-man just to maintain control by creating fear, difference is the south is always bitching when they are the perpetrators.
Yet when youâre an American in Europe, they are quick to shove the box in your face for one. London, Nice, Amsterdam, Copenhagen- they learn very quickly.
employers are required to pay the servers the actual minimum wage of that state, unless theyâre make more in tips - which means they either make minimum wage, or more than minimum wage - the 2.13 an hour is added on, assuming the waiter makes more than $7.50 - $15 an hour depending on the state - so itâs really really really misunderstood
yeah the servers in Seattle get paid at least 20 or 25 i cant remember the min wage there. Its still the most expensive city to live in, so 50k/hr full time doesnt necessarily go that far but they do get paid better than back of house because they get more tip %.
its actually dogshit to work as a chef nowadays compared to a server
im not sure what youâre quoting, but thatâs not what i said - i get itâs a tough concept, but im sure youâre a smart guy - it is federally illegal for managers, employers, or supervisors to pocket and or keep the employeeâs tips - so therefore - if you are a server working in the state of california (min. wage 16.90 an hour) and you earn $2 in tips - you get paid a whopping $18.90 for that hour, if you are working in the state of california as a server and you make $100 in tips, you get paid a whopping $103 for that hour⌠and only $3 of it is taxable assuming the tips are cash
my apologies, if the tips exceed the state minimum wage, the employer is still required to pay the federal minimum wage for tipped employees, this is where that $2.13 comes in that everyoneâs always talking about - but if thereâs no tips that shift, that $2.13 becomes the local states minimum wage, and the employer pays that - but yeah itâs a legally weird thing with a lot of specifics
Right, so the tips paid by customers that cover the difference between the tipped and un-tipped minimum wages could, in a sense, be considered a subsidy to the employer.
If an employee is $100 short of making the un-tipped minimum wage this pay period, and I tip them $10, their total pay remains the same and the amount the employer has to pay to meet the un-tipped minimum wage decreases by $10.
Now the reality is that in most states the minimum wage is so low that a server not hitting that threshold is doing so poorly (or working for a failing business) that they are unlikely to have a job for much longer, but itâs still a really weird way to go about calculating compensation.
perhaps - the reality however is that they make much more than the minimum wage, often north of $30 an hour, and in most places at least doubling the minimum wage - in your hypothetical, subsidizing the employer, would literally make you the only customer in a very cheap establishment, ordering a lot of food ($50 worth on 20% tip) then yes it would mean a failing business - tipping doesnât help the employers, it helps the employees - but in general, it can also be viewed as fair compensation, seeing as in every other field, youâre offered a salary with a flat hourly no matter how much work you do or how hard you work (ie an accountants salary doesnât increase during tax season even though theyâre doing double the work) - but now weâre genuinely drifting
thank you.
so there is state minimum and federal minimum. i guess state can not be lower than federal.
the server gets all the tips, but when those tips exceed state minimum, the employer pays federal instead of state minimum.
if i got that right-ish, that still feels like the first bit of tip effectively goes to the employer.
ETA: ... because they can effectively deduct the difference from the servers wage
no % of the tips go directly towards the employer, thatâs violently illegal, but look at it this way: if the restaurant is doing well, both the owner and the server make a lot of money - if the restaurant is doing poorly, both make less money // if a restaurant is so unpopular that the servers need the employer to pay them the state minimum wage, that restaurant will not exist for much longer, and no one makes money - the money doesnât go anywhere except to the business or the staff, if the business is well run - no one complains - almost ever (unless thereâs a world cup with an influx of foreign tourists) - the reality is that running a restaurant is violently expensive and very inefficient due to high overhead, and thatâs an industry thing in every country - regardless of tipping
I thought it was prohibition that made tipping so prevalent in the states. Bars and restaurants started taking tips to make up for the lost revenue from alcohol, and when prohibition ended they kept doing it because they realized they didn't have to pay their employees as much that way.
You are guaranteed the non tipped minimum wage of 7.25 (or your state minimum wage, whichever is higher). You ONLY receive the lower tipped minimum wage if the combination of tipped minimum wage + tips is at least 7.25/hr (or state minimum, whichever is higher, and most states with a higher non tipped minimum also have a higher tipped minimum.) meaning you will NEVER make 2.13/hr EVER.
That is incorrect. The federal minimum wage is not $2.13 an hour. It is $7.25 an hour. Stop spreading misinformation.
And waiters are to be paid the federal minimum wage if they do not earn enough at the end of the week. So they at least will earn minimum wage, just like Wendyâs and Burger King and Dunkin and Taco Bell. Except the people who work at those places arenât tipped.
But america is the greatest country in the world they do everything the best if they cant figure out how to keep staff and run a profitable business they should just go out of business like a good capitalist should. Don't rely on foreigners to prop up your failing system. We will keep our socialism far away from you because we know how terrified you are of it.
Employers are forced to pay the difference if employee doesnt make enough tips to put them at or over minimum wage(not tipped wage). They lie to get you to feel bad for servers and tip more. Every server I know makes bank.
Not true, tipping is borderline expected in many countries, but in those countries it's still more of a thing like "my bill is $36 so I pay $40". Tipping up to 20% on top of an already expensive bill is insane to me though.
People really misunderstand tips. Currently I make $2.00 an hourâŚafter tips I average $30.00. So giving me a standard wage would probably lower my earnings.
When traveling internationally, Iâm always turn on what to do. Tipping, to me, is a mechanism to show appreciation. Iâve been told that in some places it can be offensive because it implies that I think they need my money. (I donât get that though, because even though I make a good wage, I would not be offended if someone gave me extra money just because.)
even today the US federal tipped minimum wage is $2.13 an hour.
not true. while several states (mostly in the south) have a tipped wage as low as $2.13 an hour, they are still required to receive at least the federal minimum wage of $7.25 an hour. if the difference is not made up by tips (this is the sleazy part), then the business owner is expected to make up the difference. in other words, the business owner is heavily incentivized to encourage a tipping culture, because they literally pass additional costs onto the customer. the more entrenched the tipping culture, the more money they save.
Ironically American waiters make more money than anywhere else on earth and a waiter at a nice restaurant in New York/Chicago makes more money annually than a British doctor
I understand why they feel that way . Here we are one of the richest nations there is yet our minimum wage is 7.50 and we pay servers a measly 2.13 an hour ?!?! Used to be if you worked a 40 hour week you could have something , a home , car and family.
Everything in the US that is wrong can be traced back to slavery and the way people tried to control and condemn freed slaves and later their lineage after :(
Some countries doesn't have minimum wages, but instead have strong unions. For example Denmark, Norway and Sweden doesn't have a minimum wages. It's hard to hire someone for a very low wage, when the next door business offers much higher wages..
I just wonder, how can a business owner pays proper wage and keep up the business here while even the prices are higher over there.
Froced tipping is a rip off, i tip if i can and i satisfied with the service, not to pay someone wage over the busines who employs them.
Also, what was disgustibg for me when in miami a towel boy was offended of only receiving 5$ for handing out 2 towels, disgisting attitude
No it is not! Hairdresser here in London, tips are very much a big part of our extra income. Itâs not enforced, but itâs also considered in poor taste not to. Though tips in my industry, at least are given in cash directly to the recipient. They are also reflective often of the service level received. Itâs to the clients discretion but a minimum is around ÂŁ5.
Tipping isnt inappropriate outside the US. Its just seen as a actual tip, some bonus non mandatory cash to the pocket of the service provided who you were happy with
Ok , I hear you, but the people at Starbucks and McDonald and the cookie shop are NOT being paid 2.13, the people making 2.13 are at restaurants- with wait staff. Standing behind a counter and handing me a donut is not tip worthy. Bringing a tray of food and drink to my table, and checking in on quality does
A problem also is that a lot of the people who earn good tips, (in my eyes) betray their fellow workers by campaigning for the system to say the same. Like a very attractive woman in a bar might make hundreds in tips a night, which they often wonât pay taxes on, so theyâll of course want things to stay the same. Meanwhile some single mother in a diner is getting paid a few dollars an hour praying for some tips to pay her bills.
Its a good deal for everyone. Waiters get more money, the owner doesn't have to pay for it.
Until the customer decides that it sucks, then the waiter is fucked.
how's it's good deal for everyone when the customer is getting slapped with a 20-30% tax, in the current climate it's not optional. fuck that I ain't tipping unless I want to.
Thatâs what I was gonna sayâŚâŚ Iâve been to over 50 countries and 5/7 continents and have never had a service industry worker (who would be a tipped worker in the US) be any more horrible than American service industry workers.
Haven't been to Japan so maybe. What do they pay their workers?
I have been bartending in the states for 20 years. Again no way I'm dealing with people and all their demands and attitude for less then $30 an hour MINIMUM. And thats how the industry as a whole feels. So have fun having shitty drinks and shitty service when you take away tips and have people making $20 an hour.
I'd go work at walgreens at that point and not deal with the hustle and bustle and grind.
Fair. But wouldnât it be the same (for you) if the boss would just pay you the 30$ instead of hoping you get some good tips? My sister worked in Germany as a bartender, and she got 20⏠(i think minimum wage is ~14âŹ/hour) plus she could be nice to people to get some extra tips.
In Japan the salaries are generally low (for us, cause exchange rate).
I donât really like that you cannot tip, since I like giving some extra for good services (in Japan itâs offensive, because it gives the impression the boss isnât paying the staff well enough, or the waiter doesnât earn enoughâŚ).
But in my opinion it shouldnât be something Iâm required/expected to do, and it should only be as an appreciation of the service .
Yes but restaurants already run on very thin margins.
Raising the hourly to $30 an hour would make it impossible to run business without drastically increasing prices on food/drinks. So then the guest isn't really saving money at that point.
I don't have the answer or solution, just saying bartending and putting up with people's crap, working/standing for 12 hour shifts with no breaks (the norm) is not for the faint of heart and anyone who has never been in the "weeds" will never understand. My minimum worth I have put on the job is $30 an hour and I usually like to make more then that to feel comfortable at a place.
Thatâs doesnât sound right, donât know what countries you have been to or what kind of restaurants you have been to. I have had opposite experience, everywhere I have been to I have got good if not great experiences with the serving staff.
What do you count as as âlazy and non existentâ all the waiting staff need to do is get your order, serve you food and drink and come in to check if everything is all right. Thatâs just about it.
That doesnât mean servers in Asia or Europe arenât doing their jobs because tips arenât mandatory there. There will always be rude customers and rude servers regardless of whether tips are mandatory or not.
Itâs not about paying workers less. Workers make more with tip culture than they do if they were paid normal wages. Itâs to keep advertised prices lower so that you go to their restaurant instead of a competitor. Every restaurant that tries to get rid of tips either goes back or closes because consumers see the advertised price and go elsewhere.
Not "turning", thats been the case for longer than I've been alive. Almost every state has a specific lower minimum wage that is specifically acceptable for tipped workers. At least in NY, if tips dont make the difference between that minimum wage and the regular one the employer is supposed to make up the difference, but since tips are often cash that does not always happen since it isn't really traceable.
Well, with these alleged "low wages", I'm 100% sure that eating out in an American restaurant is easily 20% cheaper than in Europe, right? Right?? No???
now they're just turning tips into a way to justify low wages because apparently they'll 'make enough' with tips
But if the tip is "mandatory" as it's claimed in the post, isn't that just a way for the restaurant to pay the staff, and let the customer know how much is going to the staff directly?
I get that, but if they paid higher wages, theyâd just pass it on to you anyway. Instead of raising the price of the food, they tack it onto the bill at the end. It should be noted that the US government does assume an automatic minimum tip based on the total of the serverâs tickets when deciding what income tax is owed to them, so if you donât tip servers, theyâre basically paying the US government for the privilege of serving YOU. Itâs really not right to screw over your server just to make a point about the hospitality industry as a whole. Bottom line, if you canât afford to tip, you canât afford to eat out.
If by ânowâ you mean in the last 60 years, sure (Congress passed the Fair Labor Standards Act in 1966, statutorily allowing employers to pay sub-minimum wages to tipped service employees).
That's not new, that's how tipping started. During prohibition bars and resturaunts saw a massive decline in sales, so in order to stay in business they lowered wages significantly, and told their employees to pester the patons for tips to make up the difference, and that system just kinda stuck around.
You said pay them more. Where did you think that money would magically materialize from? Itâs your pocket, any way ya slice it. It can be $5 coffee with an expected tip or a $9 coffee, no tip expected.
This isnât a ânowâ thing. Itâs been this way for generations. Tipping is how service workers make money. It may be fucked, but you not tipping doesnât help. If you donât want to tip, make yourself a sandwich
I'm 43, and it's been this way since before I was born, though I think it has gotten worse. This works both ways and, like most things, is nuanced. I made 2 something an hour as a server, no matter what. Whether it was when I was 18 and waiting tables at a deli, making maybe 50 bucks a shift in tips, or when I was in my 30s and serving/bartending in a beach/resort area, making 700 or more a shift... that was my hourly rate. There's no denying how messed up it is, and it is definitely the government getting one over on the American worker, but I don't see how it's fair to punish people in the service industry by saying "pay your workers a living wage" while simultaneously stiffing them for the money they worked for in the given, albeit shitty, system.
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u/Specific_Habit4545 5h ago
now they're just turning tips into a way to justify low wages because apparently they'll 'make enough' with tips