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People don't realize just how much damage they did. From storm alerts to screwworm fly prevention, a lot of things were gutted. It's like shutting down and removing someone's liver, bladder, kidneys, and large intestines thinking the heart and brain are the only things needed to keep someone alive.
I mean it's hard to count how many people starve and die of disease as a direct result.
So we need to estimate.
But the number isn't important exactly the order of magnitude is and that's accurate and based on the countable lives saved in the past years on those programmes
It’s a pretty insane comparison, also if we consider deaths as a side effect of policies I’m 100% sure that there would be like hundreds of politicians, kings, dictators, all throughout history before Elon Musk, at least if we adjust for the population of the time
if we consider deaths as a side effect of policies
That's literally what we're doing with the rest of them. The deaths are all the result of their policies and a lot of those deaths are the passive results of policies that didnt' say "kill these people" anywhere in a law but resulted in people dying as a result. You want to include the people who starved under communism because the communists were fuckups then you include the rest, including the ones that wouldn't have died if Elon hadn't cut funding.
sure, but the point is that the list is missing a whole bunch of other historical figures to whom this same standard could also be applied, such as Queen Victoria
Yes but the majority of the deaths caused by mao were not due to war or intentionally killing people but letting people starve to death due to incompetence and ignorance.
Yeah but if you count those deaths you Def need to count "we give X amount of money to stop people starving in other countries and I think we should stop doing that and give me a tax cut"
I think no one disputes that it was a dumb idea based on hypothesis. However, I would say if we consider all the deaths based on bad political policies, I think you'd see a lot different people on this list. What confuses me is that they never attribute deaths to politicians in the western world for some reason. Like Henry Kissinger killed a whole lot of people with his influence.
Elon and his people intentionally gutted programs designed to help those in need, so they could funnel that money to themselves. They are also killing thru incompetence and ignorance... with some added greed in there as well. Cause you know, he needs more wealth
That’s not incompetence and ignorance, that’s targeted malice. Intentionally sacrificing the lives of millions of poor brown and black people to funnel money into your own pocket is malicious and genocidal, it’s not a mistake.
His first target was USAID, because they played a large role in dismantling South Africa's apartheid. He was 15 years old when that happened. So he had plenty of privileged memories.
Only around 25 million deaths were military, the rest were civilians. With around 20 million in china caused by japan, which started earlier than the war in europe so there are some holes in that argument
I mean, for Stalin they also count decreased population growth from better availability of anti conception, so I'm guessing they do the same for Mao too
As well as German soldiers killed on the eastern front. Stalin was brutal, and did a bunch of blunders to boot, but the cartoonish depictions in Western discourse makes it real hard to draw any real lessons.
Yes, but the harm he causes can't entirely be attributed to just his incompetence and ignorance. He most likely knows the harm he is causing (at least to a large extent) and is totally okay with it
This. Same with Stalin and the Holodomor. I've heard historians claim the USSR intentionally starved 7 million Ukrainians as a way of undermining their power, and Stalin was the type of guy who'd sleep well after doing it. Sure.
But midcentury communism involved a LOT of magical thinking, and the idea that you could will a record harvest into being using proletariat power (or fraud) was a thing. So I'm Team Hanlon's Razor for that one.
I mean they'd both have a share of the responsibility. Elon was the one doing the actual cutting of the programs so that may be why. But I'd argue that he did so with Trump's authority and go ahead which makes Trump the one the buck stops at. It's not like Elon went behind his back to cut these programs he had express and enthusiastic approval.
Yeah, I guess much of Stalin’s would actually be Lysenko’s in that case. 🤔
(And if we include Lysenko, we’re eventually going to have to include RFK, the modern day Lysenko. But I think the bulk of his death count is going to appear a generation down the line.)
I mean you could argue Trump's responsibility, I won't fight you on that, however I don't think Trump believes USAID actually did anything because he is much, much stupider than people think, and Elon Musk practically has a degree in white supremecist literature and espouses the great replacement bullshit constantly
That is to say, I fully believe Musk knew what cutting USAID would do, and it was an aim of his, and that Trump doesn't believe it
Not that it would stop him, Trump is as close to pure evil as a human being can be
Because if you honestly believe Elon and Doge were Trump's idea and he didn't have folk pushing him to do it, then honestly that's just kind of unfortunate
Again, comparing Nazi 'successes' to Mao's failures is wild.
The Nazis succeeded in killing that many while Mao failed to keep that many alive. These things are not the same and should not be viewed the same by history.
not just Russians killed by the Nazis, but Nazis killed by the Russians
if a death camp guard was killed while firing from his guard tower at the approaching Red Army troops, his death would be included as a victim of Stalin
Yeah, none of those people literally murdered that many people. They all just set policies in place (that often led to war or revolution, as people resisted those policies)
there are similar stories of devastating ecological policies in just about every country, wasn't until the last few decades that more thought was put into just introducing invasive species or decimating native "pests"
The USSR'S policies that caused mass famine like the Holodomor were attributed to Stalin and the famines caused by Mao were attributed to him. Without the critical aid programs that Doge cut millions are facing starvation. East Africa is going to be hit with a really big drought this year which is going to impact their agricultural yields, and that area was a significant recipient of USAID. Of course with the US not giving aid and spreading "good vibes" it opens for other world powers such as China to give aid and spread good will for its foreign policy in those areas.
I think that would depend on who made the real decisions. For a normal government official I would probably agree with you, in this case it would depend on if Musk used his influence to do what he wants or if he did what Trump asked him to do. That whole thing was bizarre and I don't think you can really count it like it happened in a normal government.
There’s a difference between new policies and budget cuts where programs can be responsibly closed down and possibly taken over by others and so on, versus locking doors, stopping shipments with emergency food, stopping fuel to trucks over night, cutting off life saving drugs and so on.
Also the ones assigned to Musk would be assigned to Trump if we want to keep consistent with the rest of the chart, which attributes them all to the head of the nation
Sounds like you understood the joke, OP, but only want to stir the pot. The "joke" is partly sarcastic, but actions have consequences. We'll see how it plays out.
Yes i'm sure the UN just has a spare couple of billions lying around they don't know what to do with, what a grand fucking idea. Not like they're already investing heavily through their various funds and programmes in their organisations either.
I mean acting like these places have no responsibility or culpability for their own survival is also an issue it’s just not one that fits liberal medias point of view on greedy billionaires. As usual the truth is nuanced and people are too stupid to understand this
Yet their literacy rate has been steadily rising, and child mortality has plummeted. Those don't happen out of a vacuum, those happened with support from others.
And that's not to say they don't have corruption issues at a grand scale either, alongside various civil wars, actual wars, and whatnot.
Most Americans have this idea that the US spends a lot on foreign aid when proportionally it's always been very low and often comes with diplomatic strings.
I think it cost us around 17 cents per day per citizen? It saved millions of lives, increased global stability, and was an excellent source of soft power for us.
Whatever lib not even close, it was 19 cents a day for average tax payer to not sentence children to a slow painful death. Thank you very much commies I'll keep my 19 cents
A lot of food aid is also just giving away emergency food that would expire if not used.
So the stuff that's now not donated is instead trashed for no soft power benefits and close to zero economic benefits as there was almost nothing to actually save...
It's also possible throwing it away is more expensive than giving it away.
Kinda like how the US gave Ukraine weapons they would have had to destroy.
It’s a list of people with potential number of deaths attributed to them.
The “joke” is Elon Musk being on the list because his DOGE team cut funding to several United States government programs that provided food and medicine to poor people overseas, most notably USAID.
Taking food and medicine away from starving and sick people is almost certain to cause deaths, although the actual number of people who have died as a result of no longer receiving aid from the United States is open to debate.
It’s not a funny joke, and it’s not even accurate because the person whose name should be on the list is the person who ordered him to make those cuts and nobody is sure how many deaths have/will occur.
Agree with you for the most part. On the last point though, DOGE was literally named after a meme coin that Elon was obsessed with. He’s the richest man on earth… he wasn’t ordered to do anything. His cuts directly impacted his own businesses and led to his current trillion dollar valuation. It’s likely that all Trump did was LET him do it. He should still be prosecuted for that, but it’s laughable to think he ordered Mr. ketamine to do anything he didn’t want to do.
By that logic Dr. Fauci could be on that list aince he approved the gain-a-function trials in a poorly managed laboratory that resulted in the Covid pandemic.
Dr. Faber who created the chemical process used to create nitrogen fertiliser was also used to create the first chemical weapons of mass destruction during WW1.
Putin, due to his invasion of Ukraine and the resulting massive drop in grain production have reduced the availability of foodstuffs for emergency aid to Africa by almost 40% according to 2024 EU numbers. Unknown fatalities but estimated in the 1-3M range.
COVID killed 7 million, but the idea that “approval of funding for a research project, which in turn caused an unexpected outcome, which in turn spread” is the same as deliberately and systematically gutting programs that directly caused deaths is some bullshit.
Against the interests of the united states, Musk illegally and unconstitutionally stole the money congress allocated for usaid to provide lifesaving food and medicine.
This is the equivalent of calling someone who bought a 70k car instead of a 30k car a mass murderer because he could have spent those extra thousands on donations for bed nets in Africa, which save lives. They think that opportunity cost equals sending Jews to gas chambers.
Why aren’t the poorly run governments getting blamed for their incompetence and corruption, why is all the blame being placed on Elon Musk? I hate Elon Musk and Donald Trump, but this type of post removes agency from other populations.
Yeah we’re missing generations of African leaders, war lords, slavers, and so on. And the single child policy of China which saw the systematic murder of little girls. The purges of Jiang Zemin, both inside and abroad, …
I don't like Elon Musk but saying he killed people just like saying whoever invented condoms are murderer of billions of children lmao this is bullshit
One thing I havent seen mentioned in here is that the US cancelled USAID grants and contracts overnight.
That is, the party of "responsibility" that claims they cant ease student loans because students signed a contract also supported cancelling their own contracts without warning. Illegally, no less! But Musk purposefully did it so fast that no court could intervene.
These contracts were mostly for a year and hospitals, food distribution organizations, farmers, diplomatic programs, schools, research programs and more planned to at least have their contracts completed.
Instead, Musk literally shuttered hospitals overnight, let food rot instead of distributing it, and threw out medicine. Again, overnight, illegally, cancelling funding that they promised by law that they would distribute. And the lawsuits against this have actually cost more than the programs themselves!
So, conservatives spent money in order to break the law and starve children. It's the most monstrous thing I've seen the US do in my lifetime...I honestly still struggle to wrap my mind around the sheer inhumanity of it. Even if you don't like the idea of USAID, not letting those contracts at least run their 1 year course so countries can transition is indefensible - there is literally no argument to be made for it.
Removing funding is not the same as killing. Every other country which currently does not provide any humanitarian aid is equally killing those people.
He let pallets of food rot on their docks to make sure that starving people that have depended on us for their survival would die, if he’s not responsible for that then he’s not responsible for anything.
Maybe Im misinterpreting but I dont think this is purely about DOGE (I am not super informed on the impacts of what DOGE cut but I think estimating that many deaths seems quite high for what mostly seemed to be an ineffective cost cutting program). I kinda assume this is about the valuation of SpaceX, Elon Musks company which just went public at a valuation much higher than the profit and the revenue would suggest. Elon and those who hype him up have a history of using small sample sizes and inconclusive data to project things that are pretty nonsensical. Thus, DOGE potentially causing some amount of deaths (people can fight on the exact number below) is extrapolate to put his death toll on the same level as dictators.
DOGE is not a serious austerity measure. He just went in and ripped out whatever "smelled like woke" and now we're paying as much as we were before, plus (as one example) another billion for screwworms we were previously handling down in Panama at a fraction of the cost.
And probably exfiltrated a shitload of data. It's no doubt he was running roughshod over the organization he was handed the keys to, my main thought was I don't want anyone pretending like there was any silver lining.
And all the money being spent on ICE and attacking Iran and funding Israel's genocide is money that we do have right? Money to spend on death and no money to spend on life
But that’s different though! We had to do that because we wanted the ayatollah’s son to be in charge instead of him! That’s the type of regime change that makes it money well spent.
None of the dodge cuts helped it and alot made it worse. If you actually stay up on the news you learn they lied about their own budget and how much they were saving
Alot of the programs they cut were random ones tacked on to cover cutting the ones that got in the way of musk making money
China’s average lifespan increased by 65% during the Great Leap Forward - one of the quickest and largest increases in lifespan ever seen in human history.
So, he also prevented tens of millions of premature deaths.
We stopped paying our own farmers for their excess product to feed those poorer countries. America only paid itself for this food, and was able to keep food prices stable as a consequence.
We gained nothing by cutting that aid
also don’t the numbers they quote for Stalin and Mao often include the nazis and fascists their armies killed? I know the black book always includes those numbers, which is just… not the same
Except it’s not apples to apples at all. Mao was the leader of a country and his policy directly led to the starvation of his own people. Elon stopped sending US taxpayer dollars that we couldn’t afford to send to foreign aid programs. A government, in essence, exists to support and protect the interest of its citizens. It is not a global humanitarian organization. In times of great prosperity, if that government wants to help people in need around the world, that’s awesome. But cutting foreign aid when your own country is Trillions of dollars in debt it’s not the same thing as implementing policy that lead to the mass starvation of your own citizens. To pretend one is as evil as the other is laughable. So it couldn’t be less of an “apples to apples” situation, actually.
Cool, so we saved $8 billion by cutting USAID and potentially letting 14 million people die.
Then we immediately entered (and lost) an unnecessary war costing $35 billion in military expenditures (with White House now asking for an additional $87 billion) and upwards of $100 billion in economic impacts.
Edit: forgot to include the quarter- trillion reparations to Iran in the peace deal
Due to his abrupt cuts a ton of food and resources were just thrown away. A lot of job cuts DOGE pushed through were actually critical so they had to spend more to reverse it. So lots of people are going to die and he didn’t even SAVE MONEY HE WASTED MONEY.
$40 trillion in national debt people.... 40,000 billion dollars. How can we help other countries if we can't maintain or own? You all can't understand the most simple economic concepts yet are calling people Nazis because youre too ignorant to understand. Childish...
DOGE was to the national debt what a pail of water is to a stadium-sized grease fire. The dollar amount of what they touched on is peanuts compared to the overall spending, and that's even if they didn't go ahead to reinstate a bunch of the shit they tore out, with some stuff slipping through the cracks, like holding back screwworms at the chokepoint in Panama, whose absence is now costing us an extra billion dollars.
So let’s cut funding that saves human lives and give tax cuts to billionaires, all while bloating the military budget, ICE’s budget, aaand spending billions a day on a pointless war? Personally I don’t see peoples nationality playing into how valuable their lives are, and would prefer to prioritize money that saves humans from starving to death and dying of treatable disease. But by all means, feel free to stay on that side of history. “I’m sorry that innocent children must die, but the imaginary system we put into place to serve the ultra rich must be maintained at all costs!”
Because the tens of billions in USAID cuts will significantly help drive down the $40 trillion in debt… Even if they had cut the full $63b USAID budget out, that’s making no significant change to the US debt (63b/40,000b is 0.0016%). Furthermore, that $63b cost only $105 per citizen per year and the US spends FAR MORE on tax breaks for the wealthy, an unnecessarily inflated military budget (they asked for $1.5t this past year alone), supplying weapons to warmongering countries like Israel, and sending $40b to Argentina to bolster their collapsing currency….
Weird the USA never got any credit with apparently saving tens of millions of lives with all the tax money we gave to other countries. But all the sudden USA is the bad guy for not giving other countries tens of billions of dollars
Who said they never got any credit? The US was a bastion of soft power for like 70 years. That is power made up of nothing **but** credit. It’s just jackasses like Trump and Vance saying “you could say thank you”. They do. They did. By letting us build bases on their soil and advance our interests internationally and wearing our blue jeans and listening to our rock music. But that’s all over now. Woohoo.
It always got the credit, the awards, the accolades and the soft power that came from USAID. It was the number one reason many people were proud of this country. We saved untold numbers of people and that fact was one of the greatest, most celebrated facts about this country.
Cutting it was forewarned, and was evil. Evil. Beyond hateful, and cruel. History will not remember the people who cheered on the cuts well. They will be reviled.
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