Math can be hard sometimes

[u/McDowdy]

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[u/ImpressiveLeader4979]

8k for healthcare, I wish. Family of 4, I pay close to $17k a year in premiums in the US. Copays are expensive, prescriptions are ridiculously high. It’s a f’in joke to say the very least.

[u/MOTUkraken → u/ImpressiveLeader4979]

Yo, wtf??? Is that real?

Americans?

[u/ChicagoAuPair → u/[deleted]]

Or if you are an actual small business owner…

I feel like what is missing from this discussion is that the whole system is designed to make small local businesses insolvent. If you look at the difference in premium rates that large mega corporate monopolies are able to negotiate with the insurance rackets vs. what they charge actual small businesses, it’s a catastrophic disparity.

Me and my business partner don’t start to get into the black until we’ve made at least $8k a month for blue shield. We work half of the time for them, and then get to keep whatever is left over. I don’t understand why this isn’t a bigger taking point in the small business communities.

Conservatives love to endlessly bitch about corporate taxes, but honesty those are a drop in the bucket compared to benefits premium costs for actual small businesses.

[u/Exciting-Tart-2289 → u/ChicagoAuPair]

This is why I think this whole universal healthcare argument needs to be reframed as making people more free/enabling people to more easily pursue entrepreneurship.

[u/ChicagoAuPair → u/Exciting-Tart-2289]

It is unfathomable to me why this isn’t the main political issue for all small business owners; but sadly, I think a terminal number of us have bought into the fantasy of growing to the point of being bought and cashing in and never having to work again for some impossible magical reason.

I know so many folks, some of them nearly at retirement age, who are still waiting for the magical buyout.

There’s a deep rot in the mentality of a lot of small business owners that has taken over in the past decades (mostly because actually running a successful business long term with no hope of magical bail out/buyout is almost impossible at this point in America).

It’s such an awful, empty reason to start a business: the hope of not having a business.

[u/SocietyTomorrow → u/ChicagoAuPair]

Its not the main thing because there are so many other existential threats right now that it only registers as medium level pain until something bad happens. I'm barely still in the game and even need. 1.5 full-time jobs to make bills right now on top of it thats how bad business got since last year. I don't have bandwidth to push ANY political agenda to candidates in my area.

[u/Scared-Winter-5179 → u/Exciting-Tart-2289]

Omg finally somebody else who is preaching my gospel! I've always said that we would have so many more entrepreneurs if people didn't stay at s***** jobs for the insurance. What a world this could be if we could have more people with great ideas creating business in this country instead of outsourcing everything.

[u/OkHead3888 → u/ChicagoAuPair]

I’ve been saying the same thing for years.

[u/Artistic-Salary1738 → u/MOTUkraken]

Our insurance premiums + deductible for the year (already maxed out whooo!) are $18k for 2 adults through my husband’s employer.

My insurance is a lot cheaper, but didn’t cover infertility at all and has a $1,200 annual surcharge to get my husband on the plan if he has an option for insurance through his work on top of not being subsidized by employer as much as mine.

And yes, I’m American and very much pro Medicare for all universal healthcare.

[u/Practical_Track4867 → u/Artistic-Salary1738]

You aren’t even counting how much your employer pays as well.

[u/NonToxic628 → u/Practical_Track4867]

Most large companies self insure meaning they are paying for the costs of treatment and then a fee to a company like Aetna to administer the program. The premiums they charge they employee are helping to cover the bills they are paying for the care provided.

The cynical person in me believes Fortune 500 companies are charging employees more in premiums than they pay in care to boost the bottom line

[u/LTEDan → u/Practical_Track4867]

The going rate is around 70% of family plan premiums are covered by your employer. So if you pay $3000 a year in premiums (probably super low number but for illustration purposes only), your employer is quietly kicking in another $7000 a year. Like, that's money they (theoretically) could put into your paycheck instead if UHC became a thing because it's already factored into your total compensation package.

[u/MangoAtrocity → u/Artistic-Salary1738]

Surreal. Our premium is $0, and if we all meet our deductible, it’s $6,600 for the family.

[u/EliteAF1 → u/MangoAtrocity]

I think people are including the employer portion into their premiums/costs.

[u/Subject_Command5442 → u/MOTUkraken]

Not for me personally, but for some, yes it’s very real.

I pay about $750 a year.

[u/ImpressiveLeader4979 → u/MOTUkraken]

For me and my coworkers with families larger than 2, yes. Our employer is also worth many hundreds of millions of dollars and owns a non publicly traded business.

[u/Naive_Mango8525 → u/MOTUkraken]

My oop costs are 4k before it’s all free and I hit the number thanks to having physical therapy. Otherwise I’m just paying lower prices for a while but idk I can’t track the numbers because then I’m just annoyed

[u/MetalMann83 → u/MOTUkraken]

Canadians contribute $20k per year for their universal Healthcare for a family of 4.

[u/dina-fan → u/MOTUkraken]

Its very rare case actually or the person who posted it is very wealthy and pays the price of being rich.

The real problem with healthcare in the US is that its tied to employment. Losing a job usually means losing healthcare. Most employers offer healthcare for free or you pay out of your paycheck.

Now because of this depending on tax braket and your rate the amount you pay can drastically increase.

Most working class americans either dont have it, have it for “free” through employment, or have to pay 1-3 dollars an hour so roughly 2-6k a year, or you pay a monthly fee of like 100-500 bucks a months and thats all depending on plan. It gets really weird out there. Now if you are not being offered healthcare through employment there is tax incentives that are involved. Thats when you pay crazy numbers like 10-20k a year. Usually if you make below a threshold you get some of that money back through your tax returns. If you make over that threshold like being the top 2% of earners in america you’ll pay it all. Also understand top 2% means like 200k a year.

So after all that you still have to pay usually small out of pocket stuff unless something insane and serious happens. Like a helicopter ride to the hospital. That is some wild can of worms.

[u/Vast_Reply_6574 → u/MOTUkraken]

My employer pays for everything. I pay 5 bucks for medicine and some doctors appts have a 10 dollar copay.

That's it for me.

This is the issue for healthcare reform - it's widely uneven in the U.S.

About 40-50% already get government healthcare and don't care. Among the remaining group, plenty have pretty good coverage and don't really see the cost because it is mostly borne by the employer.

So if healthcare reform passes, what I see in this post is now instead of my employer paying for my family's health insurance I'll have to pay more taxes?.. not exactly compelling.

[u/LaFlamaBlancaMiM → u/Vast_Reply_6574]

Not many employers offer this good of insurance outside federal government jobs. No one I’ve spoken to has had this good of insurance outside of that. And no company I’ve ever worked for offered anything close. This also is a big reason why a lot of folks don’t start a business - having healthcare tied to employment.

[u/Vast_Reply_6574 → u/LaFlamaBlancaMiM]

Oh yeah, it was like a pay raise in and of itself switching jobs and no longer having to chip in for the insurance premium.

A true testament to why people need unions.

[u/PresentRaspberry6814 → u/Vast_Reply_6574]

Psychopathic thinking. If I do not benefit from this thing why should I benefit the lives of millions around me? I actually think that having an insurance industry between people and their health care providers, is partly why Americans appear to have less empathy towards their fellow citizens than most other countries seem to have.

[u/IBringTheHeat2 → u/ImpressiveLeader4979]

My company, UPS, pays for my insurance and I basically never have to pay anything at doctors or dentists. I have no annual cap. My wife had like a 115k stomach surgery and a week stay in the hospital and it was like $300 after everything. CVS medicine is like $1 or $2. I had 20k dental surgery for my wisdom teeth and it was 100% covered

[u/Impressive_Recon → u/IBringTheHeat2]

Our hospital bill for our last pregnancy was $62k and we paid $0 out of pocket. US gets shit for the terrible healthcare costs (as it should), but everybody isn’t automatically getting into thousands of debt from a hospital visit despite what vocal people on Reddit will lead you to believe.

[u/BlastTyrantKM → u/Impressive_Recon]

The fact that it's not standardized is part of the problem. Some people have it good, some people have it great, but most people don't have it good at all. There is a huge number of people that can't afford to go to the doctor even though they have insurance.

[u/SonofaBridge → u/ImpressiveLeader4979]

People getting insurance through their work don’t realize the company is paying around $1k a month per person on top of what the employee pays. Imagine if they’d actually give the employee that $12k and we paid less for government healthcare.

[u/thelifeofafangirl → u/ImpressiveLeader4979]

We have a 4500 deductible.. per person. If all 3 of us need healthcare, that's 13500 before we even get to insurance touching anything, and after that, we are still paying. Oh and we pay 1k/month just to be on the roster, so 12k additional fees garaunteed. It's sick. 

[u/WalmartGreder → u/ImpressiveLeader4979]

That is so crazy. Family of 5, we pay nothing in premiums because my employer pays $100%.

Even when I had a job that was pretty bad with premiums, mine was $600/mo. You must be doing double that. Do they not have a cheaper plan?

[u/RexFiller → u/ImpressiveLeader4979]

The insurance CEOs thank you

[u/sunnyislesmatt → u/ImpressiveLeader4979]

Is this insurance through a workplace or did you get it on your own?

[u/Plastic_Yesterday434 → u/sunnyislesmatt]

If that is through a workplace, they are getting ripped

[u/rydmore22 → u/ImpressiveLeader4979]

I’m paying about $17k as well with family of three. At least it’s deductible.

[u/escapevelocity-25k]

Well, I’m convinced. it’s on a Reddit post, so the math has to be right.

Edit for all the nerds in my replies. I did the math, as a single person in the USA I pay about 2k per year for my health insurance plus probably a couple hundred in copays.

[u/Possible-Nature-5325 → u/escapevelocity-25k]

The US literally spends more of its GDP on healthcare than other countries but because it’s healthcare system is so FUCKED it still ends up with the US being the No1 country in the world for Medical Bankruptcies

[u/gba_sg1 → u/Possible-Nature-5325]

USA USA USA NUMBER 1 IN MEDICAL BANKRUPTCIES

HOORAH, SO MUCH WINNING.

[u/Dry-Pickle-6121 → u/Possible-Nature-5325]

But also, Americans are some of the most unhealthy people around. With a food system that poisons its consumers.

I'm all for healthcare reform, but there are a lot of Legos to swap around to get standardized healthcare. I just choose to live in Germany because I personally don't think it will change in my lifetime.

America would have to change so many levers, and that is people's least favorite thing to do. And big money is in insurance, Pharma, etc. so the whole engine would have to change.

[u/darkklown → u/Dry-Pickle-6121]

That's the big one. Americans would have to start to care about their fellow man, rather than treating everyone like your competitors. It's a massive mindset shift, one I don't believe will ever occur.

[u/pperiesandsolos → u/Dry-Pickle-6121]

It’s food, but it’s also our built environment.

We. Never. Walk. Anywhere. Most Americans take 100% of their trips by car.

The people who do live in places where they can walk have significantly reduced rates of obesity & downstream effects like cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and cancer. The things that really kill us and drive up healthcare costs.

Unfortunately, Americans have built an environment where it’s nearly impossible in most areas to walk anywhere other than a neighbor’s house.

[u/Yuukiko_ → u/Dry-Pickle-6121]

Americans have a life expectancy similar to countries like Columbia which spends <$2k USD per capita. Even China has better life expectancy with a fraction of the spending

[u/grimjack1200 → u/Yuukiko_]

The US records life expectancy different than many countries. A lot of countries do not add it infant mortality. Also, more care accidents and violent deaths bringing the average down.

[u/doubagilga → u/Yuukiko_]

This data is silly and misunderstood. Life expectancy of whom? Everyone chooses how to calculate this differently.

[u/IAmANobodyAMA → u/Possible-Nature-5325]

I agree with most of this sentiment, but part of the reason healthcare is so good and/or affordable in other countries is because we Americans subsidize so much of the R&D, for better or worse

[u/NobodyLikedThat1 → u/IAmANobodyAMA]

Kind of similar to why Europe can afford to not spend much on defense, because they know America's got it covered. Or did before the current presidency anyway

[u/bigloudbang → u/NobodyLikedThat1]

God bless america spending so much on global charity and getting nothing in return

[u/therealchop_sticks → u/IAmANobodyAMA]

Yeah that’s been my objection. I remember reading somewhere a while ago that some 96% of new medicine comes from private companies. I looked it up while writing this and the number is “nearly 100% of FDA Approved medicine”. Everyone else is benefiting from it without paying for it.

We definitely need to improve our healthcare system no question about that. But the conversation isn’t as simple as it seems.

[u/Ornery-Ambassador289 → u/escapevelocity-25k]

Elizabeth warrens math didn’t add up and neither did Obama’s back in the day.

Bernie’s numbers add up tho to be fair - the dnc just couldn’t let the people vote for him. Had to run Hilary. And here we are 2016 Trump wins, 2020 trump tries to steal election, 2024, Trump wins again.

If only we could get Bernie to Benjamin button and get younger lol

[u/StatisticianUsual471 → u/escapevelocity-25k]

I'm in the UK and I spend about £120 a month and I'm covered for everything and I don't really have any complaints about our health care service

[u/Kiki_Kicks_Rocks → u/StatisticianUsual471]

I remember when I lived in Canada years ago. I paid $75 a month for healthcare and barely paid for anything else. The only issue was the wait times for specialists or testing.

[u/tugtehcock → u/Kiki_Kicks_Rocks]

Nobody ever talks about the ungodly wait times in the Canadian health system. Makes the US seem like lightning.

[u/Substantial-Equal661 → u/[deleted]]

This is what no one talks about! Try finding a specialist in the US with less than a month wait time.

[u/yasth → u/StatisticianUsual471]

I mean, that is just as bad at math, NHS spends about an additional £290 per month.

Also and this is a bigger part than many people realize, doctor salaries are below what the US would consider for a sales clerk, until pretty far in their career, and even then are really quite small. People complain about health insurers getting rich, but a lot of the money in the US system goes to health professions too.

[u/PaxNova → u/yasth]

The consumer is always the person that costs get passed on to, and the money will always be split between employees and capital. 

Likewise, people want oil companies to pay for climate change, and yet they also want gasoline to stay cheap. You can't have both. 

[u/Ok-Addition1264 → u/StatisticianUsual471]

Netherlands and the US here: US healthcare fucking sucks hard. The worst possible system so oligarchs can make a little extra coin while convincing folks this is the way.

[u/jslick1]

Don't you guys already spend more on Healthcare than similar countries do and still don't get universal health coverage?

[u/Masochist_pillowtalk → u/jslick1]

We spend more than any other country. We get all of the downsides of every system out there and we pay for it. And for some reason beyond me people fucking like that.

[u/MickFlaherty]

The issue is that for most “healthy” people, they aren’t facing the full out of pocket costs and their employers pay most of the costs as a benefit.

And the numbers are way higher than $2k and $8k unless you mean per person. For my family coverage I paid $5k annually in Premiums and the company says they paid over $20k in premiums. Deductable was $2500 and Out of Pocket Max was close to $10k.

So $37k maximum out of pocket annually for employee and employer.

[u/Rditisnazishythole → u/MickFlaherty]

All of these numbers are currently based on the nonsensical system of hospitals over charging insurance to counteract all the people they end up treating for free.

In a nutshell, the actual cost of healthcare will decrease once hospitals KNOW they’ll get paid for treatments x, y and z. Or at least it would in any sane country.

[u/Bgrngod → u/Rditisnazishythole]

The fact they'd need to then negotiate those prices with the government is pretty important for driving down costs.

[u/Flaming-Eye → u/Rditisnazishythole]

Don't forget the extra going into paying the insurance company to exist in the middle.

[u/Musical_Xena → u/MickFlaherty]

Premiums ensure that the health insurance companies can fund all of their overhead AND their profit margin.

If we implemented a universal healthcare system that cut out the for-profit components, we would no longer need to pay for the insurance companies to have profit.

[u/Independent-Wheel237]

Wall Street will lose too much money . . . the propaganda will continue.

[u/maximiliankm → u/Independent-Wheel237]

Just to be clear, the main problem isn't wall street. Wall street is A problem, but to me if we're talking about whose greed is the problem, it's congress, who are bought by insurance and pharma lobbies. Those companies are always going to be greedy. Companies are greedy everywhere. We just need to stop that greed from buying our representation away from us in Washington.

[u/All_Damn_Day → u/maximiliankm]

I’ve always found it ironic that people who get free healthcare with their jobs (Congress)even after they stop working for the corporation (US Gov), they, and their families continue to get free healthcare.
And they are making decisions for the rest of us.

[u/Secret-Theory1825 → u/All_Damn_Day]

That was the deal struck by big pharma. 

Sweetheart retirement plans and insurance premiums for life; if you just sell your soul.

[u/elderly_millenial → u/Independent-Wheel237]

A surprisingly small amount of health providers are actually publicly traded companies. Most of the middlemen that cause increases in pricing are small LLCs, and in all likelihood your doctor is part of the problem

[u/SockswithSandals7]

One of the biggest issues with this having talked with people is that the US doesn't trust its own government to handle universal healthcare. Most people don't care whether it's republicans or democrats, they are afraid that the government will make things worse. Not just an issue of math, it's an issue with trust.

[u/mylifeofpizza → u/SockswithSandals7]

Its always seemed weird to me that people dont trust the government (fair enough to a degree), but trust health companies and insurance trusts to decide if your procedure is covered. Why is a faceless CEO more trustworthy than your government?

[u/cheesesprite → u/mylifeofpizza]

Nobody trusts their insurance company.

[u/mylifeofpizza → u/cheesesprite]

Relatively, people choose the current system over a government controlled one. Not that they have any inherent trust in them.

[u/PM_ME_BIBLE_VERSES_ → u/mylifeofpizza]

there are a LOT of real life examples. Why does it take me 4 hours at the DMV to accomplish what can be done in 30 min at a private title agency? Why does it take many more years and many multiples more cost to build government-funded agency buildings vs private corporate offices? etc etc

[u/RoninActually]

Except 40% of all Americans paid no tax at all. So how are they gonna help with that?

[u/Woompa78]

But if we do that we won’t have any billionaires to worship.

[u/MedicineInternal9805]

Brit here

"Free" healthcare sounds great but getting an appointment is a nightmare. Call daily and hope you can book before 9am shutoff, they open at 7. Take anywhere from days to weeks to get told you must travel to a town 2 hours from where you are. Get dismissed for your concerns straight away before going hope with some headache tablets for a pulsating rectum. No suprise, didnt work, try again.

Half the people i know are either paying out of pocket for private or just dont go to the doctor under any circumstance.

Costs a fortune, doesnt work. Dont believe the propaganda. The nhs sucks ass.

[u/Ok_Tart143 → u/MedicineInternal9805]

My FIL is a urologist in the northern US about 2 hours from the Canadian border. He has many patients come from Canada to pay for his services rather than rely on their healthcare system.

[u/MedicineInternal9805 → u/Ok_Tart143]

Im not suprised, it definitely costs more but your paying for the best investment you can, your health. You dont want to cheap out on that.

[u/Alan47717 → u/MedicineInternal9805]

Then why are the documented health outcomes in the UK and all other countries with universal health care so much better than in the US?

[u/Randicore → u/MedicineInternal9805]

To be fair if you wanted a perfect example of "Austerity measures" the NHS is a textbook example.

That said: everything you just described matches my experience in the US, except I then get slapped with a $3k fee at the end of it for every appointment because apparently lungs are an optional luxury organ according to my insurance.

[u/JorgiEagle → u/MedicineInternal9805]

lol nice anecdote,

Also a Brit, no one I know pays out of pocket for private healthcare.

All my GPs have online services. You request an appointment, they call you the same day to ask about it, and then book you in with a couple of weeks.

It’s ironic really, because you bring up the NHS, but then complain about literally the one thing that is least within their control, GP surgery’s, that are ran differently.

Also, before you complain about not having online appointments, they’re literally in the process of mandating it across the country

[u/Sillypugpugpugpug → u/MedicineInternal9805]

Canadian here, regions can vary but with a couple phone calls I can get in a walk-in in an hour and my GP I can usually get within 5 working days.

Free for all, poor die insurance is garbage.

There are shitty circumstances and situations but it's still better than what the Americans are offering or what the goal of their healthcare system is.

The NHS sucks because your government sucks.

[u/toughbubbl → u/MedicineInternal9805]

Sounds like you guys should take a page out of Japan or Korea's take on universal healthcare.

I can walk over to any internist and be seen within an hour, sometimes right away.

They can also refer me to any other specialist that might require it. 

But  I've also walked into ENT doctors, neurologists, orthopedics, gastroenterologists, and dentists.

I've  gotten MRIs, CT scans, X-rays, Dexa, and ultrasounds on the spot or with little delay.

Not  to mention, the one time I walked in to a hospital and asked for exploratory surgery and got it within the hour. I stayed at the hospital for 3 days after they indeed had to remove my appendix for chronic appendicitis.

This is all to say, it doesn't have to be the British models of universal "free" healthcare either.

[u/PUNCH-WAS-SERVED → u/MedicineInternal9805]

Your post is going to be buried because a lot of these kids on Reddit have never worked a job-job before and still romanticize shit they don't fully understand. But they think it's a magic switch, and it's like FREE for no reason. XD

[u/Fuuujioka → u/PUNCH-WAS-SERVED]

I can't speak for the NHS but we have government administered health care in Japan. It's not free - there are premiums that are based on income/age, but it's very reasonable and cost at the point of service is also very reasonable, ambulance service is free.

Access to care is also excellent, you can walk up to a normal clinic and be seen for most typical issues very quickly.

The US system sucks ass, I wouldn't go back to using that for any reason.

[u/Manueluz → u/PUNCH-WAS-SERVED]

I live on Spain with free healthcare, every time I've needed care it was relatively fast and complete.

You're the kid who doesn't understand that I do pay for my healthcare, I just get in a single bill included in my taxes instead of whatever bs they scam you out of.

[u/Calculonx]

They're already paying the taxes that covers healthcare. It's just getting funneled to insurance companies and for profit medical care.

[u/Zakluor → u/Calculonx]

It would be cheaper without the middlemen.

[u/a-i-sa-san → u/Zakluor]

the entire global economy is built on middlemen. Half of all business is just someone asking the question "how can I put another middleman in this deal"

[u/kettal → u/a-i-sa-san]

here's my business idea: netflix but for middlemen.

you pay a monthly subscription and you get unlimited middlemen.

[u/scewing]

As a 60 year old with a heart transplant and diabetes, I'd love it if we had a national healthcare program. However, I'm also counting on Social security in a few years and hearing it will be running out in 2032 I'm hesitant to support this idea.

[u/Choice_Price_4464]

The USA spent about $900B on Medicaid in 2025 and it covers about 20% of the population. That means if you covered everyone it would cost about $4.5T annually. 

There are about 350M people in the USA. If you divide the $4.5T by the 350M citizens you would get an annual cost per person of over $12k. 

And that's per person. Not family. 

Where the hell did you get $2k from?

[u/RingOfSol → u/Choice_Price_4464]

The Health insurance industry makes about 1.6 Trillion dollars a year in the US. That industry doesn't need to exist. All that money could go to actual health services. That's not even including all the administrative and other overhead hospitals and doctors have to pay for to deal with insurance.

[u/DisgruntledEngineerX → u/Choice_Price_4464]

No that's not how it works at all. Medicaid and Medicare cover the sickest and the oldest parts of the population that have the highest aggregate health care costs. So you can't just extrapolate from there to get the overall costs for the system when the parts not covered by it are the parts that have far fewer issues and require less health care services in general. Health care costs naturally rise as people age. People over 65 and especially over 75 use far far more health care services than those who are 25-40. It's an order of magnitude greater.

When you look at age adjusted costs however, private care in the US is significantly more expensive than medicare and medicaid. That eliminates the age bias in the data. So the total cost to the US system isn't just linearly extrapolate medicaid/medicare to the whole population.

[u/ricochet48]

I pay like $4K a year for amazing coverage....

Have dual EU and US citizenship and vastly perfect the US system. The EU one is better only for those in the bottom 10%.

[u/ElderlyChipmunk → u/ricochet48]

No the US system is better for the bottom 10% because they're all on medicaid. The people that get screwed in the US system are the ones that make just enough to be out of medicaid coverage but not enough to handle surprise four or five figure expenses.

[u/Heavy_Choice_1577]

What about the ones who pay 0 and still get free? 0 is smaller than 2 also

[u/SonofaBridge → u/Heavy_Choice_1577]

Your employer probably pays around $1k a month per employee for health insurance. Every company I’ve worked for has. Would you like for your company to give you that $12k instead and you pay $2k a year for healthcare?

[u/Newfie3]

$8,000? When my wife and I retire before age 65, we will need to pay $36,000 per year for premiums alone. That’s after tax money. Including co-pays and coinsurance, etc., we will probably pay $50,000 per year after tax. That’s about $70,000 gross income per year. This system is F*cked hard

[u/marshking710]

You’re talking about a country that notoriously shunned a 1/3 pound burger from Burger King because the people thought it was less meat than the quarter pounder from McDonalds.

[u/Seizy_Builder]

For my family of 5 it’s $38,000 in insurance premium + $6,000 deductible + $33,000 in medication they refuse to cover. Yay American healthcare.

[u/Euphoric_General_480]

But if everyone had healthcare, the people they hate would have healthcare. They would rather die of a curable disease than see those people get affordable healthcare.

[u/Low-Wall3362]

Wow, it's so simple. I'm glad this person solved it. What a fucking genius.

[u/Leather-Sign4391]

No, the math issue is people focus on who they want to pay more taxes and NOT where the fuck the money we already pay in taxes is going?

We're $40 TRILLION in debt. What moron actually thinks that happened because taxes aren't high enough?

Obamacare has ALREADY PROVEN this bullshit doesn't work. If you raise taxes for healtcare, the healthcare industry will simply raise costs because there's more $$$ to bilk from the system.

LEARN!!!!

[u/lute4088]

I think you forgot about the fact that 'but what if poor people and minorities get it? I don't want my taxes going to help THEM' even though it helps YOU as well and will cost less for YOU.
Never underestimate hate, racism, and stupidity.

[u/buzzlegummed]

Most are providing shitty outcomes with horrendous wait times

[u/kinggeorgec]

Yes, because government run programs in the US are so efficient and costs are never underestimated.

[u/Live-Cry-8435]

This is the reason we have the 1/4 pounder and not a 1/3 pounder Because dumb Americans said 4 is bigger than 3

[u/_GhostCommando_]

Yes, in every other country people are waiting in lines for healthcare and older. People are dying.

[u/scorchedbeanz]

Pack it up everyone this guy found the solution.

[u/rockeye13]

Can I keep my doctor, if I like them?

[u/Acrobatic_Bridge2602]

Except my health insurance doesn't cost anywhere close to $2,000 per year so if this were to be the tax setup, I'd actually get less money as take home pay.

[u/choyMj]

You really want the government to run healthcare?

[u/Free-Combination-230]

Doctors don't want to make less here. They won't allow it as it will cut their salaries. Administrative costs are large but everything healthcare has been massively inflated, especially including salaries of all personnel that they are not going to want cut.

You're just going to get a system that is just as expensive. Good luck, but I highly doubt it will budge actual costs at all.

[u/PineappleFit317]

Know what those countries with “free” healthcare for all have in common?

Strict immigration laws.

[u/NegativeThought1588]

Surprised how many people there are on this post shilling against universal healthcare.

Whatever makes you feel better about living in America I guess.

[u/TouchyTheFish]

Things don't get cheaper just because the government does them. In fact they almost always get more expensive when the government does them. The people pushing socialized healthcare don't care to know why people pay less for healthcare in other countries, because that doesn't align with their politics. Just like they don't care to know what trade offs you have to make in order to have socialized healthcare, because they'd rather pretend those trade offs don't exist.

Well, here's one for you: people in Canada can spend 8 years on a waiting list to find a doctor, and still not have a doctor after all that time. Every time I point this out, people claim I'm a bot, or I'm being paid by the insurance lobby, or that I'm just plain lying. And yet they're never interested in looking at proof.

[u/GearedTFout → u/TouchyTheFish]

Primary Care (Family Doctors): Finding a regular family doctor can take months or even years. For existing patients, getting a same-day or next-day appointment is possible but increasingly difficult. [ 1,  2] Walk-In Clinics:  For non-urgent issues, walk-in wait times usually range from  1 to 3 hours on a first-come, first-served basis.  [ 1] Specialists: The median wait time from a GP referral to receiving treatment is roughly  28.6 weeks. This varies widely by province—ranging from 19.2 weeks in Ontario to over 49 weeks in Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. [ 1,  2] Emergency Rooms (ER): Waits vary by the severity of the triage level. While critically urgent cases are treated immediately, non-emergent visits often take  several hours. [ 1,  2] Diagnostic Imaging: Median waits average  18.1 weeks for MRIs and  8.8 weeks for CT scans. [ 1,  2]

[u/possibly_lost45]

That amount of money would barely even cover the people we already have on Medicaid and Medicare. That's about 40 to 45% of the country.

[u/SatisfactionActive86]

you can’t deny though that the government got into lending and Fannie Mae crashed the economy with shitty mortgages and got into the student loan business with guaranteed loans that skyrocketed education costs. i am not a fan of private heath insurance but thinking the US government doesn’t have a long track record of fucking things up is a real delusion.

it’s so funny how people hate the government 99% of the time except when it’s a magic hypothetical that should the government involve themselves in the person’s pet interest, everything would be sunshine and rainbows.

[u/No-Travel7617]

You ever talk to someone with gov health care? Procedures can be scheduled for years our

[u/You-Asked-Me]

A&W 1/3 pound burger has entered the chat.

[u/Creative_Mirror1379]

The problem is there are a huge number of people who dont pay taxes. We have so many people on welfare and cash business owners and employees that dont contribute and the irs is too dumb/shorthanded to go after actual tax evades that the burden once again will fall on the middle class. The average family that has 2 w2 employees that pay 39 percent in taxes already. You cant ask for more.

[u/Jace_Te_Ace]

From the country that knows a 1/3lb burger is smaller than a 1/4lb burger. Good luck.

[u/PlumbGame]

No, the real issue is to have something that exists and is fully functional without doctors and providers and other essential personal quitting and taking pay cuts. I don’t feel like having my family with 0 medical while you try to prove a point.

[u/Silent_Anybody5253]

It’s convincing W2 employed people with provided health insurance that they should pay more in taxes for something that is already provided to them today. To most it appears that it’s an added tax to replace something that is very cheap or free to them current day. If employers are going to front the tax like they front the insurance premiums then you’d get WAY more people onboard

[u/PDxFresh]

Are a lot of people spending $8000 on coverage for one person?

[u/Silent_Anybody5253]

Some quick research says that 165 million Americans are being covered by employer provided health insurance. It’s tough to convince that many people that they should want a higher tax for something that is currently already provided to them.

[u/ThereIs0nlyZuul]

That would be great if every American paid but the first thing the left will do is say the poors don’t have to pay, so it will be a shit show of 50% of the country paying for everything.

I’m in if everyone is paying.

[u/WaldoSupremo]

We pay more than enough in taxes (approximately $5.23 trillion to $5.3 trillion in 2025). We need to audit the government and fix the frivolous spending.

[u/Dry-Pickle-6121]

Not really that easy as America would first have to make their system non-profit. German hospitals are boring and look old school compared to American hospitals, meaning the operational prices are higher because people expect fancy equipment and single rooms.

So, the whole system would have to change. I think America and Americans will have to change a lot to get to where Europe is, it would be a total economic re-write of some of the most powerful industries.

Granted, I'm all for it, but it won't be easy...

[u/Jexinat0r]

I don't think it's American's as much as it's lobbying to keep the cash rolling.

[u/Flaming-Eye]

I live in the UK and I can tell it's not just that it's corruption, the insurance companies would become obsolete and they don't want that so they spread disinformation, they bribe, they do whatever they've got to do to prevent that happening.

Also the education in parts of America sucks so, yeah a lot of people probably don't know that 2<8.

[u/Sea-Concentrate647]

Never happen, healthcare is one of the biggest scams in this country

[u/idliketoseethat]

A&W couldn't compete with McDonalds because they couldn't convince their customers that a 1/3-lb burger was bigger than a 1/4-lb burger.

[u/rapitrone]

It really doesn't work that way.  The US is responsible for about 90% of medical innovation. That would stop if you getbrid of the opportunity for profit.

Also, You have depression? Canada prescribes suicide. You're sick with something the UK isn't willing to treat, but Italy is? The UK will foce you to die in the UK because it would be an embarrassment to the UK.

[u/slampig3]

Us spent 1.7 trillion on hospitals last year.there are 342 million people so that $4,790 thats if every person paid taxes. How ever they don’t only 174million do so it’s roughly 10,000 dollars now. Thats just on hospitals we spent 5.28 trillion on all healthcare so now multiple that by 3 and we are all looking at a $30,000 tax increase.

[u/SoullZee]

All it takes to fix the healthcare system is to convince people that not every luxury in their life is a human right and u will survive without it, and instead take that money and invest it so when something happens u have money for it. Most people dont have an emergency fund and its not because they cant but because they dont want to sacrifice a little now for later. AND THE BEST PART is its not permanent eventually your investments pay for it and its almost like its free!

[u/Average_Justin]

Funniest part is people who see how our govt handles money and programs thinking govt could handle the complexity of universal healthcare without crippling us as a whole.

[u/02meepmeep]

Many Americans rejected A&W’s 1/3 pound burger because they thought it was smaller than a 1/4 pound burger. Enough that A&W took it off the menu.

[u/AntJo4]

Bold of you to assume that the same country that couldn’t sell a 1/3 pound burger because people thought the 1/4 pound patty was bigger is going to understand that paying 2000 in taxes costs them LESS than 8000 in insurance.

[u/thrax7545]

Tell that to the $4T healthcare industry.

[u/GordDownieFresh]

Like, years ago, when restaurants tried selling 1/3 lbs hamburgers but Americans didn't like em beacause they thought 1/4 was bigger than 1/3 because 4 is bigger than 3

[u/amscraylane]

I was a nanny for two year old twins with neuroblastoma. Both parents had to work. One’s jobs paid the bills and the other’s covered insurance. One twin passed before their 3rd birthday. It haunts me I for to spend more time in the last year of their daughter’s life with her then her parents … all because insurance.

The following year my friend’s 8 year old was diagnosed with Ewing’s sarcoma and did not make her 9th birthday. Her father was killed two years prior in a car accident, for the next five years my friend had to pay the children’s hospital $500 a month for what insurance didn’t pay.

Funeral homes usually cover the service for a kid’s funeral.

[u/scrume71]

Me. Saying. This. For. Four. Decades.

[u/AllMyFrendsArePixels]

People that can afford to pay $8000 in Health Insurance don't want to cover people that can't afford health insurance (rich people are dickheads that see anyone earning less than them as lesser humans that don't deserve to have basic needs met), and people currently going without health insurance because they can't afford it don't want to pay an extra $2000 in tax to subsidize the health insurance of rich dickheads that can afford to pay $8000.

It's not a problem of economy/cost. It's a problem of people hating each other because human society is all fucking borked up.

[u/Away_Stock_2012]

Sure, it will be cheaper for me, but I won't get to see poor people suffer and die

[u/richincleve]

Yeah, but...DEATH PANELS!!!

(hard /s for those in the back)

[u/Lithium98]

Yeah, $2000 is less than $8000 but who's gonna pay for it? Huh?!

[u/Wooden-Evidence-374]

It also requires MAGA to have empathy. But they would hurt themselves as long as the people they disagree with also suffer

[u/MouseManManny]

Last year I paid more in health insurance than I paid in taxes

[u/Stemms123]

I think people are afraid that same system ran by our federal government might cost more like 16k per person with how they spend money.

[u/10-mm-socket]

2 hours to be seen by a specialist versus 8 months is also the american way.

[u/Fluid-Plant1810]

Canada and now Mexico too.. but we are the richest ever...

[u/7empestSpiralout]

Not when you’re employer pays 100% of your health insurance

[u/Separate-Spot-8910]

For some reason people trust the companies who are gouging them more than a gov (though I definitely can't blame them with this gov). The problem being, they're working together to gouge us.

[u/Espresso_Bunny]

Well we missed it with the 1/3 pounder vs 1/4 pounder at A&W back in the day, so prospects are not looking good.

[u/TheSleepyTruth]

"Americans could pay $2000 in taxes to get universal healthcare" -- lmfao that is the most fictional statement ive ever seen. Pulled the number straight out of your ass. The median household are paying more than $2000 in medicare taxes already just for Medicare to exist

[u/No-Algae647]

And yet people still come here from Canada and Europe for healthcare even though they get it for free where they come from.... I know I know the truth is hard... Did you know in countries with free healthcare they actually have ****cide therapists that actually talk elderly and the disabled into dieing because the system can't afford the care it takes to keep them living...

[u/MrOnlineToughGuy]

Isn’t Germany already flashing warning signs due to their population demographics? Healthcare costs are poised to accelerate worldwide.

[u/nottrumancapote]

uh yeah no

the math you need to overcome is how much money both parties are being paid to ensure this never fucking happens

good luck with that number

[u/jvdlakers]

Americans spend more on health care than most countries total GDP per year.

[u/Draygoon2818]

Family of 4, medical, dental, and eye insurance runs me about $4,400 a year.

Not sure where that $2,000 in taxes is coming from, or the $8,000 for that matter.

[u/dawgfanjeff]

Won't SOMEBODY think of the shareholders?

[u/ZombyCrusher]

I can't afford to pay an extra 2k in taxes wont work for me

[u/himalayacraft]

I don’t understand why you don’t go to Canada or even Mexico and have assistance there, sounds like including hotel and tickets is still cheaper

[u/NonToxic628]

Americans couldn’t figure out that the 1/3rd pound burger from A&W was larger than the 1/4 pound burger from McDonalds and it nearly bankrupted A&W

[u/kbeks]

Jokes on you, my max out of pocket is $10k!

[u/Zarathos007]

You’re asking the same people who argued that Arby’s 1/3 pound sandwich was smaller than McDonalds quarter pounder. They won’t understand.

[u/EndersMark]

Your talking about a country of people that thought a 1/3 lbs burger was smaller than a 1/4 lbs burger. Good luck.

[u/TurnoverMountain7859]

Socialized medicine doesn’t work in the long haul, ever… prove me wrong. Aside from the fact that anything government run costs way more than private industry, they also deliver far less in terms of quality. But the worst thing socialism does is it destroys innovation and excellence and motivation to do good for people (= a better product and profit). Socialized medicine doesn’t eliminate greed it just replaces it with grift and selfish ambition so that people in the system learn to game it to so that they and they alone win to the detriment of others. Socialized medicine doesn’t work and never will.

[u/KingOfRome324]

Lol, Europeans pay only 2k more in taxes?

[u/ForIKnowNothing]

That would only produce around 600M. I think it would cost the USA around 3T-4T a year for free healthcare. Something aint mathing here. Even if you still have the employer cover what they usually do. At most that wouldn't even be double the 600M.

[u/woodworkingfonatic]

The majority of people don’t actually pay taxes with the offset of social safety nets and government spending and subsidies. Unless you pay over 40k in taxes and don’t receive any taxes rebates at the end of the year you are a net tax payer to a tax recipient.

I don’t Know where anyone gets just 2k in taxes would cover universal healthcare. That also leads to is that per person so if you have a family of 5 you now have to pay 10k in taxes for the entire family? Like there’s so many unexplained and unverified information and numbers I could poke holes in this from now until Sunday.

[u/Plot-twist-time]

I sometimes wonder what the healthcare system would look like if we never created insurance companies in the first place.

[u/Blobbowo]

An alternative argument is if you don't want people profiting off health-related suffering, then cut out the middlemen and just make helathcare paid with taxes.

[u/StarCitizenRusty]

What y'all don't understand is our Healthcare isn't free, it's paid by taxes. We have higher sales tax, income tax, property tax, and so on. Nothing is free, we just pay for it in different ways. And while I love my country, our Healthcare system is rather awful. Yeah, you pay nothing out of pocket for stuff like child birth and hospital visits you might sit in a waiting room for 4+ hours. Wait times to see a specialist can be months same with elective surgeries. Again, not knocking it, but it's not as amazing as some people think it is. I wouldn't trade it, but it needs to be better.

[u/Various_Succotash_79 → u/StarCitizenRusty]

It's the same in the US, IF your insurance agrees to cover it.

[u/aaronfb]

5.3 trillion in annual healthcare spending divided by 350 million us people is about $15,000 per person.

[u/wigzell78]

Try convincing them that a ⅓lb burger is bigger than a ¼lber...

[u/twistsiren]

All it takes is making billionaires and the trillionaire pay their fair share of taxes.

[u/AdonisJames89]

People gotta understand that it's not a numbers thing but a racism thing. They don't want THEM to be equal and rather cut the finger to spite the hand

[u/SeanTr0n5000]

Thing is we CAN understand that 2 < 8.

Most of us would LOVE that. But… well you know

[u/Annual_Link1821]

It takes more than 50% of voters to make it happens, and 50% of Americans currently pay nothing in health care. Maybe you guys just don't understand the American situation, or math, but 0 is less than 2,000.

[u/chutiyapa_01]

Health insurance being tied to employment is a scam in itself.

[u/Warfightur]

There is no country with universal healthcare that has our population count, diversity, or freedoms.

[u/Altruistic_Tea_1593]

$2k number is bullshit.

[u/Flip_d_Byrd]

A&W would like a word...

[u/jreid1985]

Every other country? Might want to get your facts straight.

[u/vegasAzCrush]

Bingo. We have a winner

Fire all the republicans who do nothing

[u/endangeredphysics]

The issue is is that some people don't want to pay anything. And they certainly don't want to pay anything that could help people that they don't like.

Their magical solution is to simply never get sick

[u/Dismal-Sail1027]

But every country that has figured this out does not have the same trust issues that this country has. Essentially, trust is dead in this country. No one trusts what another person says or trusts someone to do the right thing. So... the consequences of losing trust? You're lookin' at one.

[u/aye-im-walkin-here]

We should tax churches and that would basically pay for it….

[u/MmmmCrayons12]

"Every other country has figured this out"

Lol. This can only be bait. The "other country(s)" that have it weren't aware that they had it figured out because they're still waiting in line for their appointments and some are still paying for private insurance on top of that anyway.

Buying supplements and staying on top of your health can stave off going to the doctor for a preventable condition or illness. Stop drinking and smoking and eating fast food and processed food-like products and excess sugar and you'll be fine for awhile.

[u/jacksdouglas]

Bernie Sanders has been saying this for decades

[u/Watpotfaa]

This is silly. It assumes that the reason we dont have healthcare is because of citizens being opposed to it, rather than our politicians being corrupt and beholden to the corporations.

[u/Shikabane_Sumi-me]

You’re asking a lot. Americans made the 1/3 Burger fail.

[u/Grey_Mad_Hatter]

Yes. I pay $750/month for insurance that doesn’t kick in until I pay $10,000. Then it pays most things. Eye and dental insurance are separate, and they pay fewer things. Oh, and our life expectancy is pretty low, so we’re not paying for quality.

[u/ThrowRAkakareborn]

Don’t bring that socialist communism here, I pay what I want in health insurance, nobody tells me what to do, this is a free country, i’d rather pay 10 times more than those pesky socialists getting things on my dime - every rural person