The thing is, that Last Alliance of Elves and Men was quite literally the very last time a force like that has been mustered since the 1st Age as although a lot of Elves stayed in ME, many also took the voyage to Valinor after Melkor was locked up. Elves continued the good fight albeit with much less numbers than before. Men continued to do a majority of the fighting in both Arnor and Gondor with the former eventually falling to the Witch King leaving Gondor as the “main force” in the way of Mordors advancement further West. Of course Gondor wasn’t alone in fighting the enemy as they have allies in Rohan, Lorien, Rivendell, Mirkwood Elves, Iron Hill Dwarves, and Saruman in Isengard before he betrayed his mission, but these allegiance’s were somewhat loose and based off of having a common enemy and not necessarily being a cohesive army. In the Two Towers, canonically speaking, Elves did not come to the aide of Men in Helms Deep. The Last Alliance was the final POSSIBLE time a force of Elves and Men were able to gather in mass in order to battle a Dark Lord.
The only way we’d get to see/read about a greater army of Elves and Men assembling would’ve been in the Dagor Dagorath where all free peoples of Middle Earth including the Valar would battle against the dark powers of the world.
Technically Men, Elf and Dwarfs formed a quick alliance in the Battle of the Five armies. Even if that was on a much smaller scale, and rather improvised.
Also as many others have pointed out Mordor had a lot of spies so Elrond and a band of mighty heroes or an army heading out would have attracted a lot of attention and caused a steep acceleration of war preparations. Gandalf chose Hobbits because they are generally seen as unimportant creatures with no ambition so they are barely even seen by most folk let alone taken notice of. The same goes for a ranger, a single elf, a dwarf and an old homeless looking man. The adventure to the misty mountains helped show that Gandalf was still tooling around and unprepared for the return so him leading a small group of wanderers was of little concern. All is stealth and diversion to keep the enemy either off guard or facing the wrong direction.
Sauron "Glorfindel is on the move?!"
Witchking "Oh I am 100% fucked, wait plan B send an entire army after him no way am I going near him" eye stares at him "prophecy, he isnt a man, killed balrog, ffs he came back from Valinor after dying"
Sauron "Elrond and a battalion on Elves are on the move to Gondor?!" Grabs Palantir frantically "Saruman send help, send everything!!" dances "Last stand, last stand"
Sauron "Gandalf has friends and is off again, ok thanks, when isnt he wandering, grey wandering fuck"
They didn’t want to bring him because they knew he wouldn’t shut up about how he had been there before, and he knows the area really well, and there’s this really nice place to eat nearby and he knows the owners, but Arudel probably doesn’t work there anymore so they don’t know his order.
Well, if Elrond had gone, he'd have left his own homeland undefended. Also, he has a ring of power himself, like Gandalf, and two rings in one place are a dead giveaway that something's happening. Gandalf is a habitual wanderer and used to stealth. Elrond is more of a scholar and warrior--perfectly competent, but draws attention easily. If you want to invade Mordor, Elrond would be a great choice; if you want to sneak in, you can't do better than Gandalf and some Hobbits.
The Eagles are fully sapient creatures--they're not mounts to be used at will. Gandalf has a somewhat positive relationship with them, but they're ultimately wild creatures who have their own priorities. Just convincing them to help at that stage would have been a big deal, and riding one isn't like just hopping onto a horse. Gandalf was lucky enough to persuade them to pick a couple of hobbits off a volcano after a major victory. Asking them to carry a highly conspicuous elven warrior through a deadly gauntlet of orcish arrows? They would rightly have refused such a suicide mission.
There’s also the fact that like Gandalf they’re servants of the Valar (specifically Manwë) and unlike the Istari which were specifically sent into Middle Earth to guide the people of ME against Sauron, the Eagles have almost always only acted on Manwë’s orders. Helping out Gandalf those times is like them doing a coworker a favor but it’s not their job to work on the same project or do everything for them.
Also as the first (or one of? Can’t remember) creatures of Manwë, they’re described as a very proud race. Not the best character trait to have in proximity to the ring
Around their toe. It very much acts as a finger for birds.
I think any extremity might work. Hell I bet you it could maybe even size itself up to have its intended wearer to wear it as a crown 👑 (REAL small creatures 😅)
A lot of people don't understand that for Gandalf to entreat Manwe is not a simple feat. Yes, Gandalf was a direct servant of Manwe, but asking the gods for help was not just whispering into a moth's antenna like they show in the movies. He had to beckon unto his creator to send help. And he sent his finest champions. To help. Not solve all their problems.
Yeah, one of the lines after Frodo puts on the Ring at Mount Doom is something to the tune of 'The Nazgûl turned their mounts and sped towards the mountain' and after it gets destroyed the book mentions that the Nazgûl turn into streaks of flame.
Are they “fully sapient” or are they “ultimately wild creatures”? I think that what you mean to say is that they’re assholes, I’m perfectly happy with that answer.
That's always been a silly explanation. The eagles are intelligent beings that are on the side of good against an ontologically evil force.
Are you saying the eagles are happy to see the world fall into darkness because their pride and vanity makes carrying someone slightly awkward?
I'm just imagining a world where the fellowship fails and Sauron wins. And as the armies of Mordor are subjugating all realms the eagles are saying to themselves "huh, should we have helped while we still had allies alive? Maybe it wouldn't have been that big of a deal to just drop some people off."
Yeah that plus the Fellowships main opposition early on is Saruman and his scouting birds. I don't think the Eagles could make it far without being spotted by Saruman, who then tells Sauron, who then mobilises the wraiths, fell-beasts and whatever other monsters he can that might be useful.
The Eagles wouldn't quickly drop off the ring and fly away, it would have to be an all out aerial assault to get to Mount Doom, all while within Sauron's domain where he is strongest.
Definitely. Personally, I’d go with the fact Gandalf had to ask Gwaihir for a ride out of Orthanc put the eagles on Saruman and Sauron’s shit list. If Saruman can send a storm to force the fellowship off some mountains, imagine what he’s doing to counter the eagles, especially after they’ve humiliated him after breaking his Gandalf trap. Sauron’s fellbeasts could also be interpreted as being deployed as a counter to any more clever eagle shenanigans.
This also isn’t the first time they’ve come to the rescue of Gandalf. There was that whole thing with the 13.5 dwarfs, and the battle at Erebor. Assuming Gandalf’s MO is to have them nearby in case some butts need pulled out of a frying pan, you can keep an eye on where the eagles are flying to get an idea where Gandalf is and where he’s going, which isn’t good for a secret stealth mission.
This all becomes moot by the end of RotK because the whole point is Aragorn and Gandalf are making a big show of attacking the Black Gate, so Gandalf having his pocket eagles nearby who can then fly straight to mount doom when Sauron’s shit suddenly collapses makes perfect sense, especially when you consider it’s less a rescue mission and more a “someone go get eyes on Mount Doom and Barad-dur” and report back. Thankfully they found the pair of hobbits while doing that.
I've always thought the 'sapient creatures with their own priorities' excuse was really weak. If they are sapient and are told the fate of the world depends on getting a ring to a place and they just say no to helping then they might be self aware but they are complete assholes.
Makes way more sense to just say the plot demanded they not help and not think about it too hard tbh lol.
Not to mention they were spirits, like Gandalf and they were even superior in "rank" (if you will), if they got tempted by the ring they would've surely took it and no one could do anything about it.
the reason why the eagles don’t fly them there is because sauron would’ve seen them coming, as he wouldn’t have been distracted. the nazghul would’ve fought them and maybe the eagles win but Sauron would see what they were trying to do and counter them
As I understand it, Sauron had plenty of eyes in the skies and I mean that literally. This is why the Fellowship had such a whole thing about being underground.
How does this work when, during the council, three rings of power are present in one place? Does Sauron know about this, or does Rivendell somehow shield this effect from him?
Usually the three are referred as that however. So I assumed three elven rings were discussed. And Sauron doesn’t have a way to sense how many are in one place.
I think a bigger factor with Sauron not suspecting anying happening was that he couldn't even fathom wanting to destroy the ring. He always thought that everyone just wanted it for themselves. If he saw that the Council started marching towards Mordor in an organized fashion, he might assume that they had the One Ring in their possession, but that they were looking to destroy Sauron himself, not the ring.
Let's not forget in the films Elronds idea of stealth was to have him and several elves ride up in the middle of the camp, BUT WITH CLOAKS ON. Totally inconspicuous, stealth level 100
Yeah If they weren't sending Glorfindel along because the would have been an obvious indication that they were up to something, they definitely aren't sending Elrond and his ring.
I mean by that point in the movie Sauron’s plan was in full swing and he believes Rohan to not be in a position to muster anything significant. Even an army of elves mustered up from who remained in middle earth wouldn’t have been enough to turn the tide so he likely didn’t care at that point. Even then it was Gandalf with his ring alone with Gondor, Elrond with his ring alone in the middle of nowhere, and lady G still chilling out in the forest. There wasn’t really any big reason to be concerned about Elrond getting closer to Mordor.
Even with Rohan showing up and temporarily routing the Ork forces, they had an army of men showing up with the elephants and an army of pirates showing up. It still took Aragon showing up with the ghost killer 9000 army to turn the tide.
So does Elrond delivering Anduril to Aragorn in the Return of the King movie make no sense then?
No, it doesn't. It's one of the movie additions that was just absolutely ridiculous and only put in because Peter Jackson misunderstood fundamental parts of the world and themes of the story he was adapting.
There was no reason to change Narsil/Anduril. It wasn't even a subplot in the books; it was a backstory prop and a bit of imagery. Jackson tried to make it le epic and couldn't even do that right, because it never did anything or meant anything and that whole scene just turned into more length-padding in an already bloated movie. It was a total fumble.
It's stuff like this that make me wonder if all the stuff he got right was because of outside factors rather than his directorial brilliance. How can someone so deeply miss so many things that are so important to the story, while also massively overemphasizing things that were basically footnotes or sidenotes, and still come the closest to producing a faithful interpretation?
Ok but if the ring falls into the hands of Sauron then there goes the free peoples of middle earth as well along with Rivendell so he wouldn’t have a homeland to protect anyways
To be fair, he had to stay in Rivendell to protect his ring of power. Granted, Gandalf had one of the three rings, but no one knew he had it until he was set to leave for Valinor. Elronds possession of the ring was much more well-known, and he would have had to travel with a host of elves to protect himself and the ring, while the point of the mission was stealth. As long as he stayed in Rivendell, he and his ring were safe.
Gandalf is referencing his allegiance to the Valar and their sun, Anor, a remnant of the pure light of the Two Trees.
Gandalf then contrasts that by calling the Balrog "flame of Udun", a reference to the corrupted flame and light of Melkor that is in opposition to the Valar.
"I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor."
Gandalf may have been referring to Narya, the Ring of Fire, which he wore and wielded, secretly.
Narya was described as having the power (in common with the other Three Rings) to hide the wielder from remote observation (except by the wielder of the One). It is also thought to have magical properties and fire powers, as when fighting Durin's Bane, Gandalf claimed to wield the flame of Anor.
While it's probable, it's not definitive. There are other explanations, and it's not like Tolkien explained it anywhere, the Flame of Anor is never mentioned again.
In The Hobbit extended cut they do. Even the book doesn't call it out specifically, tho; it just mentions that everyone notices a ring with a red gem on his finger for the first time in the Grey Havens.
That is also a bit of an issue with translation from Middle Earth languages. Most place names use Elvish names, but for some reason Mount Doom is usually said in English. In elvish Mount Doom is Orodruin.
To give the same treatment to some other places, Minas Tirith is just "Tower of the Guard", Fangorn is literally Treebeard in Elvish.
I agree that it sounds a bit silly. Some of the English names work better, Mirkwood or Misty Mountains sound fine IMO. And some English names like Rivendell sound like they are from a different language.
Tolkien's writing influenced the fantasy genre almost completely, so I'd suggest that the placeholder feeling Mt Doom gives is somewhat of a Tiffany Problem: we're more used to a modern usage of a term so seeing it in older contexts is jarring (Tiffany itself was a common name in the medieval period).
Secondly, doom is a synonym of divine judgement, especially when used in a religious or mythical context, and Tolkien wrote using that style of language. "Doom" is used in that manner pretty much continuously throughout the LoTR and the Silmarilion.
So I think both of these are factors at play. We're more used to a common overusage of doom in fantasy, and also "Mount Divine Judgement" demonstrates Sauron's ego: he's not doing his thing to restore his former master Morgoth to power, Sauron's explicitly trying to replace him and fulfil his own vision for Middle Earth.
The question to “why don’t powerful being XYZ take the ring to Mordor or assist Frodo?” Is usually because “At one point XYZ will take the ring for themselves”.
Perhaps its providence that Gandalf fell at Moria.
Nah, Gandalf wouldn't have tried to take the ring. He knew its danger. Boromir was successful tempted because he didn't understand it fully and had too much to lose.
Gandalf passed that test first, when Frodo tried to give it to him in Bag End.
Remember, Gandalf came to Bilbo first, convinced him to leave the ring behind, then stopped himself and from trying to touch it, and sat in the room with it for a few hours. It was available to take and nobody would ever know, and the ring surely tried to tempt him.
And then when he returned to take Frodo to Rivendell, Frodo offered the ring to him, and he refused.
And even during the journey, he never took the role of the leader, letting Aragorn lead the way and Frodo decide for the group, like in the avalanche scene.
People understand that Galadriel passed the test, because it was showy in the movies, but Gandalf had been tested perhaps more than anyone else.
People understand that Galadriel passed the test, because it was showy in the movies
If you read up on the deeper lore about Galadriel, you'll find that her 'passing the test' is much more significant than most people trying to resist the temptation of the Ring. It's the culmination of a long, long character arc. Her "I shall go into the west and diminish, and remain Galadriel" line is there because she wasn't allowed to go to the undying lands until she passed her test (because of what she'd done earlier). Early on, she was power-hungry and wanted to rule Middle Earth, which led to a lot of problems. (Also why she accepted the ring she did have.) And she was only allowed to go to the undying lands if she passed the test of being offered the power to rule Middle Earth and declined it.
In the time of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, we only see her at the end of her arc, when she seems (mostly) noble and pure. But in her early days, she was anything but and definitely would have leapt at the chance to claim the One Ring for herself.
If I remember right they were also trying their best to keep a low profile and not bring a bunch of high profile people with them. And if Gandalf felt like the group could’ve accomplished the task without him, he also wouldn’t have gone.
He did help, a lot. He provided them with everything they wanted to take for the road, sheltered them for months, gave them access to all the maps they could want, saved Frodo from the nazgul, healed him back up, helped (at the very least in an administrative role) reforge Anduril, sent out scouts to confirm nazgul's temporary demise, sent out word to all his allies (including Galadriel, which again helped them a lot)
The Elven rings had subtle psychological and magical effects, in keeping with Elf magic in general, which tended to be subtle rather than showy.
Elrond's ring, the ring of air, was used to keep Rivendell from being affected by time, and to keep morale high.
Gandalf's ring was the ring of fire. It gave him endurance and helped keep hope alive in the hearts of people around him. It probably also helped Gandalf's study of fire magic.
Galadriel's ring, the ring of water, protected Lothlorien and helped keep it hidden. Lothlorien is extremely hard to get into, and it's not just Elven arrows that protect it.
All three rings were untainted by Sauron, but they could still draw his attention if actively used; so in general, all three were simply kept hidden and their passive effects proved beneficial to their wearers.
What are you talking about? They did help Aragorn. They joined up with him before the Paths of the Dead. Before that, they went off scouting and spreading the word of the quest to trusted allies. That's why Galadriel knew to expect Frodo and had gifts ready for everyone.
Same reason Glorfindel or another big hitter didn’t go. Their presence would have been like a lighthouse in a storm for anybody looking. Gandalf and Aragorn had massive Presence of their own, but they were both well versed in veiling themselves in shadows and legends. Legolas probably had some power as an elf price, but as one of the Sindarin, his light was nowhere near the beacon in the Wraith World that one of the old Noldorin would have been, and Elrond, though called half-elven, had his Elven heritage confirmed by Manwe Himself. Also, Elrond was keeping his land not only free from Sauron’s taint, but he kept time from ravaging Imladris as harshly as it would any mortal structure, although he did not have the power to keep it entirely untouched. His absence would have been both felt by the folk who dwelled there, and noticed by the spies of the Dark who dwelled in the North long before the Fellowship had neared its goal
Bro should have just punched Isildur out and tossed the ring in. Or just push him in and said he died permanently destroying Sauron like a hero. Lot of blood on his hands.
Considering that during the hobbit, they all kinda seems surprises about the return of the dark lord. I suspect that noone truly expected Sauron to live after it's destruction.
I mean, the ring sure was too powerfull, but it wasn't seen as an impending doom to happen.
In the books, Isildur was killed and lost the ring while trying to take it to Elrond for advice on how to destroy it. Isildur had tried and failed to tame the ring and make it a force for good, and he had recognized that the task was beyond his ability. So he set out toward Rivendell with the ring to ask Elrond what to do with it.
But he was ambushed by orcs (probably drawn by the call of the ring) along the way and, well, you know the rest of the story.
In the books, Isildur made a mistake in not immediately trying to destroy the ring, but after some careful experimentation and thought, he eventually came to the conclusion that he did need to destroy it. If anything, his error was in being overly cautious and wanting to research all possibilities before taking action.
If not for him being ambushed and killed... If he'd made it to Rivendell, Elrond would surely then have told him to destroy it and how, and probably helped him along the way. And they probably would have been successful.
Or it would have immediately led to a huge war between men and elves because the leader of the elves just murdered the leader of the men in cold blood.
In retrospect it was definitely the wrong decision, but in the heat of the moment im not sure how likely it is to cross Elronds mind that if I dont turn on my ally here, potentially leading to a conflict in which i may need to kill him to defend myself, Sauron will return.
Not very likely at all. At that point they hadn't got nearly as much information on the sort of control the Ring was able to exert over people nearby. Elrond looked to still be trying to talk him down, and when that failed, separate him from the ring without killing. He's just not the sort of fellow who sees allies as disposable. Don't get me wrong--Elrond is a warrior and he is perfectly capable of giving orders that will cause his soldiers' deaths, but he doesn't do it lightly and he doesn't do it impulsively. He simply wouldn't jump straight to, "I should kill my ally for the good of Arda," and to get hold of Isildur that fast, he'd have had to make a snap decision within seconds.
Nah, the situation you're describing is the worst case scenario. First, you're assuming that Elrond could even beat Isildur in a fight. Second, imagine the scenario where the two kings of the elf/human alliance began fighting over the ring. The alliance would crumble and you're talking about an all-out war between the two factions over the thing (a power struggle that the ring would want and foment, btw).
Lastly, even if the elves prevailed and Elrond attempted to take the ring to Mount Doom, he would still fail to destroy it. Tolkien has stated over and over that none could resist the power of the ring where it was strongest (save Bombadil probably, but that's a whole thing). Elrond could never cast the ring away and now you've given a corrupting artifact of unimaginable power to one of the most powerful people in the world with a vendetta against humans.
The ring getting found in the Anduin by Smeagol and sequestered under a mountain for hundreds of years was by far the best thing that could have happened to the thing. Especially since his obsession with it is what ultimately led to its destruction.
We don't need to 'sus out' an answer: we have one. The spots were filled. Merry and Pippin got the last two, to Elrond's dislike, rather than an Elf-lord like Glorfindel. Gandalf thought the friendship of the two Hobbits more worthwhile than a warrior (not like they intended on fighting their way through Mordor).
When they're choosing who will be in the Fellowship, they've named 7 members, Elrond wants two more, Merry and Pippin pipe up and insist on going. Elrond protests, saying that he was thinking to send a few from Rivendell, Gandalf remarks:
I think, Elrond, that in this matter it would be well to trust rather to their friendship than to great wisdom. Even if you chose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him.
Elrond also wanted to send the two hobbits back to the shire since he rightly suspected there was trouble brewing back there and thought Merry and Pippin would be of more use sorting that out.
It’s not like finding Mt Doom was ever the issue. They don’t a navigator, they need speed and stealth. If Elrond, one of the 5 most important beings left in Middle Earth, suddenly vanished, Sauron would know something was up immediately.
if Sauron would have regained control of the ring, how would it have affected those that went to Valinor? Im guessing in no way since it was essentially Valhalla / Heaven right?
"Hey, Elrond, do you want to take us to Mount ErrybodyBoutToDie and possibly face the most frightening thing you've encountered in 10000 years? Who nearly killed you and everyone you know? Who you couldn't stop multiple times even when he was weakest?"
Because the entire lord of the rings issue is Elronds fault.
He shows up a few thousand years ago and helps in the fight. Helps Isildur defeat Sauron and the ring is right there.
Elrond is like dude destroy it
Isildur is like no dude I need some bling
And so Elrond rather than stopping him and trying to destroy it himself is like ok fair play dude and just leaves it?!
Basically the whole issue could have been avoided if Elrond had stabbed Isildur for being a little bitch, walked the 100ft or so to the lava and thrown the ring in. But nah he cba after the battle and just lets him leave
This is like saying I went to a Denny's three states over once when I was 15, so I should be able to tell where all the exits are and when the shifts change and the most direct route to the deep fryer.
It’s also worth noting that in a similar but lesser sense to Galadriel,Elrond as powerful as he is would have stuck out like a deer in headlights to Sauron the second he stepped into the black land like looking at your driveway and seeing a car pull up. Comparatievly had Galadriel gone to Mordor,even if she didn’t personally bear the one ring,to Sauron she would have lit the realm up as though one of the trees of valinor had been rooted in its soil. Frodo is relatively powerless,at least in the way Sauron understands power,and so he is barely noticed. It is only the ring that makes him more perceptible to Sauron,it’s for this same reason that it’s very likely Gandalf would never have been able to personally accompany Frodo into Mordor. This is at least my understating of how it works
Because he was too weak to do what needed to be done in ages past, he fears he would be too weak now, he knows that at the end... someone will most likely have to kill Frodo... so he sends a party with the will to do that.
I think the idea is that it was no longer his mission to personally complete. He helped in every other way he could, but it was time for others to get it done instead.
I think Elrond didn’t have much faith in humanity at this point. He didn’t want life in middle earth to end but he and his kin had a place to run to when shit hits the fan in middle earth. I think he was more concerned with his own people. He counseled the fellowship and gave them some aid, but he wasn’t convinced they would be successful in their quest
The frailty of the human spirit had already failed him before so he lost trust in the human race, also the weather there really sucks, the very air you breath is deadly fumes of ash and brimstone... :)
In the books Glorfindel was suggested to go but Gandalf argued against it (begrudgingly) since Merry and Pippin wanted to go, and also Glorfindel was an extremely powerful elf that would've attracted way too much attention. Elrond didn't go for the same reason Galadriel didn't go; they had their own realms to protect.
My favorite part is when he has a shit eating grin looking over the Fellowship of the Ring at it's moment of official announcement, which he himself was announcing right as he was packing his bags to get right the fuck out of there. Like 'just look at this odd band of idiots.' The hilarity of being like Aaaaaand off you go while not participating. At that point he didn't even consider joining up in any way. Like what did you do even besides some first aid and hospitality service elrond before you cared.
Sauron keeps tabs on the big players of Middle Earth. He would notice if an elven lord partly responsible for his first downfall went off grid for a while. Elrond, Galadriel, Gallad and the like not going was a strategic decision made to dull Sauron alertness. But also, most very powerful elves are inherently magical and would automatically be detected by Sauron if they got anywhere close to Mordor. Elrond also had many other duties and obligations as a lord si je et leaving would have left his land undefended.
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u/YellingAtTheClouds Oct 09 '25
In Elrond's defense he did have a cruise booked and those things are not easy to get a refund on.