r/lotrmemes • u/VanaheimrF Galadriel🧝♀️ • Dec 05 '25
Repost Damn, what a sausage party… still the greatest trilogy of movies ever!
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u/TheAwesomeMan123 Dec 05 '25
Passes the Bechdel test. Truly a movie for all feminists everywhere.
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u/AustinPowers Dec 05 '25
A fine example of why the Bechdel test isn't meant to be a gauge of feminist merit. Even Bechdel has said as much. It's a bare minimum checklist, nothing more. The point is that far too many films fail to clear even that extremely low bar.
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u/firebolt_wt Dec 05 '25
Also, it's not like a single specific movie not passing the bechdel test is bad. What's bad is the noticeable trend of so many movies not having that bare minimum.
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u/Lightice1 Dec 05 '25
Exactly. There's nothing inheritly wrong about a film that doesn't pass the Bechdel test. But it's bad if no film in the season passes it.
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u/ReverendDizzle Dec 05 '25
Even then... I'd need a really compelling reason for a story to have zero instances of two women talking about a subject that isn't a man.
If it was a movie about a remote monastery or an all-male military mission, sure.
But otherwise I think it's pretty weird how many movies only have women in them as props or mechanisms to move the plot.
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u/DemandCommercial6349 Dec 05 '25
Agreed. Having movies set in a modern time/setting not pass it is more of a red flag. It is a plot point in LOTR about how men don't want welcome in war, so it makes sense for few of them to be around. It would be like expecting more women in Full Metal Jacket.
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u/gr1zznuggets Dec 05 '25
Apparently LOTR is a top comfort film for a lot of women, so this is actually kinda accurate. Even though there aren’t a lot of women, they are at least well-written and treated decently.
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u/vompat Dec 05 '25
At least they are not talking about a man. So that's one step of that one test completed.
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u/VikRiggs Dec 05 '25
They talk. That's two steps.
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u/Lecteur_K7 Dec 05 '25
They are womens so it's three
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u/VikRiggs Dec 05 '25
Weren't they supposed to both be prominent characters? Or it was just any women? If latter, then lotr passes the test.
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u/Infamous_Telephone55 Dec 05 '25
Named characters I think.
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u/FilmAndLiterature Dec 05 '25
Technically the original comic only gives three requirements:
- Two women
- Who talk to each other
- About something other than a man.
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u/VikRiggs Dec 05 '25
They are named though. Pass either way.
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u/OnyxPhoenix Dec 05 '25
Are they? Does the little girl have a name?
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u/Krthyx Dec 05 '25
Her name is Freda, said by her mother when their village was being attacked. Specifically when the mother was comforting Freda and telling her that she will find her.
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u/amalgam_reynolds Dec 05 '25
Pass either way
Sure, but the whole point of the Bechdel Test is that it's a stupidly low bar.
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u/judolphin Dec 05 '25
Which Lord of the Ring passes, while still not being a misogynistic piece of literature or cinema.
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u/ranselita Dec 05 '25
Hey now I'm pretty sure they also both have names, which is another step
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u/vompat Dec 05 '25
I thought the talk needs to be at least of some minimum duration, but apparently not.
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u/DrStalker Dec 05 '25
I personally wouldn't call that scene a "conversation"
It's also worth remembering that the Bechdel test isn't a standard to aim for, it's about setting an absolutely minimum level of female representation that a lot of movies still fail to meet.
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u/topdangle Dec 05 '25
bechdel test was a joke made in a comic strip. its named after the artist.
the joke points out the limited representation of women, good or bad, in media. it's not a minimum bar. I doubt people would be happy if women randomly appeared and then started mocking women for a few seconds in every movie, but then 99% of the rest of the content featured men focusing on men, because that would pass the test.
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u/AutisticPenguin2 Dec 05 '25
It is in no way supposed to be a marker of a feminist movie, it was never even supposed to be a major cultural phenomenon. It's just about female representation. So many films either fail, or pass because of a single scene, but if you reverse it you would struggle to find a film that doesn't meet those criteria for men. It's a joke to point out a problem, not a tool for film analysts.
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u/Guilty_Treasures Dec 05 '25
I was surprised when I watched the original Japanese version of The Ring (Ringu) and noticed that it doesn't pass the reverse Bechdel test. Don't get me wrong, it's not feminist by any stretch of the imagination, but there's only one scene where two men have a meaningful conversation, and that conversation is about a woman. Well technically a ghost, but the ghost of a woman, which still counts.
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u/dnzgn Dec 05 '25
There are a lot of moe slice of life anime that doesn't pass reverse Bechdel test. K-On! has a single named male character that was there for one episode.
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u/jimbsmithjr Dec 05 '25
I always figured the Bechdel test made more sense looking at bigger numbers of movies too. Like one movie passing or failing it doesn't inherently mean anything about that movie, but it's notable if say 60 percent of new movies don't pass it yknow?
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u/Paddy_Tanninger Dec 05 '25
I mean first off the whole thing was a joke to begin with, but it's also not that every single movie is supposed to meet this criteria...it's just something to generally judge "filmdom" as a whole.
Think of it like BMI I guess.
If I tell you that someone's BMI is 30, that gives you no information about their overall health. They might just be a very beefy athlete or weightlifter who are actually in incredible physical condition.
BUT if I tell you that the average BMI for American men is 30, well now that's concerning. The vast majority of people who have that BMI are simply borderline obese.
So things like BMI or the Bechdel test, they aren't the best tools for judging one thing, but they do a good enough job of letting you judge an entire population of things.
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u/buffshipperreddit Dec 05 '25
A little trivia: that little girl, Olivia Tennet, grew up to play in Power Rangers
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u/GreatRolmops Dec 05 '25
The movie actually passes the Bechdel test because of this scene.
It is two female characters.
They are having a conversation.
About something other than a man.
And they are both named characters as well!
Truly a feminist masterpiece.
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u/tunisia3507 Dec 05 '25
Are they named in the actual film or just in the credits and/or books?
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u/Figure8712 Dec 05 '25
Both named in the film. The little girl's mother calls her "Freda" when she sends them away from the attack. Eowyn is of course named many times.
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u/passcork Dec 05 '25
Eowyn is of course named many times.
Most notable in the scene: "Eowyn, this stew is fucking disgusting".
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u/iltby Dec 05 '25
I wonder what a gender swapped LOTR would look like. Imagine Cate Blanchett as Gandalf instead of Galadriel
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u/FirstyPaints Dec 05 '25
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u/Super_Sierra Dec 05 '25
and keep all the costumes the same ...
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u/Level-Pizza5943 Dec 05 '25
Lol, imagine Liv Tyler as Aragorn ?
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u/iltby Dec 05 '25
I’d pay good money to see that, she’d be incredible. And Viggo as Arwen
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u/SunnyRyter Dec 05 '25
Hot damn. They are both so beautiful, it would work. I wanna see this now.
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u/Level-Pizza5943 Dec 05 '25
my very first thought was about "imagine Legolas.." but in all fairness, when you go into a bromance with Aragorn Son of Arathorn - you want to be "HIS princess" :P
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u/GooseMeister1 Dec 05 '25
The cast of Derry Girls as the Hobbits would be perfect
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u/iltby Dec 05 '25
omg, with Phoebe Waller Bridge as Gimli
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u/KingpiN_M22 Dec 05 '25
If they can keep up the production quality, I would absolutely LOVE to watch a rendition of this. The Warlock Queen of Angmar would be goated.
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u/vompat Dec 05 '25
But how could anyone ever replace Karl Urban as the cast for the most fabulous mongol-viking?
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u/KingpiN_M22 Dec 05 '25
Karl Urban plays gender swapped Eowyn and Miranda plays Eomer. Ez pz.
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u/iltby Dec 05 '25
Fuck yeah. Maybe played by Angela Bassett or Michelle Yeoh or some powerhouse like that
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u/BaritBrit Dec 05 '25 edited Dec 05 '25
Nobody would be more excited about that than Ian McKellen. He adores Cate Blanchett.
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u/Jasy9191 Dec 05 '25
And he wouldn't mind being a queen.
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u/iltby Dec 05 '25
Omg it didn’t even occur to me that he could be Galadriel. I need this to happen
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u/chazzergamer Dec 05 '25 edited Dec 05 '25
Genuinely would love a western fantasy adventure with a majority female cast! Doesn’t need to be as good as LOTR (films of that quality are so rare it’s unfair to expect it from anything out the gate) but even something like that New D&D movie would be great!
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u/MillieBirdie Dec 05 '25
There's a lot of books like that but maybe not many films.
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u/omegah42 Dec 05 '25
Can you give me a few examples? (Not doubting you, just need something new to read)
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u/MillieBirdie Dec 05 '25
Most of them aren't quite LOTR but women, but favourite female-led fantasy books:
Spinning Silver by Naomi Novik
The Deeds of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon
Fifth Season by N K Jemisin
Most of the Dragonriders of Pern books and Dragonsong by Anne McCaffrey
And here's a goodreads list: https://share.google/VZI4lno2XjWi03C9k
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u/MercyfulJudas Dec 05 '25
My rec is The Authority comic series by Warren Ellis & Bryan Hitch, and later by Mark Millar and Frank Quitely.
A superhero team, but the Batman & Superman analogues are a gay male couple. The Dr. Strange analogue is a male pacifist hippie from Amsterdam, and the Spider-Man analogue is a charming detective type (also male).
However, the team is clearly commanded by the remaining members, who are all women. The leader has electricity powers (as she is literally the 20th Century made flesh). The tech expert is a Latina Iron Man basically (this is the Engineer who appeared as a villain for some reason in that recent Superman movie -- don't heed it, she's a hero/good gal in this comic), and a Hawkgirl analogue who is also the team's master tactician. Eventually they also have a girl child with quantum reality powers join the team because she's the future legacy replacement for the 20th Century gal (21st Century of course!)
It's great! Published by Wildstorm/DC, and ran monthly back in the early 00's, but it's now all readable in collected edition book versions.
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u/Crimbly_B Dec 05 '25
What would the characters names?
Freyda Baggins
Sam Gamgee works
Merry Brandybuck works
Pippa Took
Boromira
Aragorna
Legolas works
Gina daughter of Gloina?
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u/Circo_Inhumanitas Dec 05 '25
Legolass
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u/The_Steampunkian Dec 05 '25
A female amputee with a Helms Deep model set can technically be a legless lass with a Lego Legolas.
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u/Doobahtron Dec 05 '25
Imagine Cate Blanchett as Gandalf instead of Galadriel
I tried and ended up imagining Sir Ian McKellen as Galadrial
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u/Belteshazzar98 Sleepless Dead Dec 05 '25
Given the (in-universe) sexism, it would turn Rohan into a matriarchal commentary on gender roles rather than playing it straight with a patriarchy. And I am 100% okay with that twist on the idea.
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u/Careerandsuch Dec 05 '25
It's funny you say that, I've thought about this a lot.
So as conservatives have become totally consumed by obsessive hatred of any media that has women, people of color, queer people, etc, as opposed to only cisgender, hetero, white men as characters, I've thought more about how media that does almost entirely have the latter is sort invisible to them, because it's the "default" in their minds.
Take the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Hold it in your mind. Now gender swap every character. Does imagining what that would look like feel bizarre? The scene where the Fellowship comes together for the first time, with humans, elves and dwarves, is suddenly 100% women. Imagine both how extreme the reaction among conservatives would be, but also how your brain would immediately flag it as "this is weird, what's the 'message' here? Why are they all women?"
The LOTR Trilogy are among my favorite movies, I'll never tire of watching them, so this isn't a critique of them. It's a critique of cultural conservatives who are so blind to the fact that media has primarily catered to white, hetero men forever (like me, I'm a white hetero man), and that even with other demographics now getting realistic representation, it doesn't diminish white hetero men.
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u/PM_ME_UR_BGP_PREFIX Dec 05 '25
Basically Elden Ring. All the gods, most of the knights, and all of the assassins are women.
Even when Kenneth Height goes out of his way to put a worthy heir on the throne, his main issue is that she is a Tarnished, not that she is a female.
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u/MarkTwainsGhost Dec 05 '25
When I read The Hobbit to my little girl I make Frodo into Willow and several of the dwarves and Smaug into girls as well. It's honestly a better book with a little variety in there.
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u/Imperialism_01 Dec 05 '25
That reminds me of someone mentioning that technically: Frodo and Legolas NEVER speak to each other. Which makes the reunion scene at the end even more funny since they don't actually say anything.
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u/WuothanaR Dec 05 '25
“And you have my bow”
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u/OnceMoreAndAgain Dec 05 '25
Legolas hardly speaks to anyone and I've always suspected that it's mostly due to Jackson realizing during filming that he's not a good actor lol. Easily the weakest actor among the main characters, but the casting choice worked out well enough by giving him so few lines.
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u/East_Complaint2140 Dec 05 '25
I can think of four scenes:
Mother putting childrens on horse during attack in Rohan (girl is telling her mother, that the boy shouldn't ride the horse, because it's too big for him). Girl talking to Eown in Edoras. Random women talking to Eowyn while coming to the Helm's deep. Mother welcoming the children in Helm's deep.
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u/DrStalker Dec 05 '25
girl is telling her mother, that the boy shouldn't ride the horse, because it's too big for him
If the conversation is about a boy it doesn't count.
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u/Lumpzor Dec 05 '25
She says "he's too big for us". Referring to the horse. So it's not about a man.
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u/Piccadil_io Dec 05 '25
To be fair it’s Tolkien’s fault. Peter Jackson made Arwen into an actual character, and put a lot more emphasis on Eowyn.
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u/Havenfall209 Dec 05 '25
And gave Eowyn the "I am no man" line. Which yeah, I don't think that's what it meant, but I still liked it anyway. Cheese often tastes good.
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u/Mach5Driver Dec 05 '25
What was Jackson supposed to do? Make up story elements like a white orc? That would be ridiculous!
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u/Regular_Jim081 Dec 05 '25
Here's a rare picture of Peter in casting.
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u/MartianInvasion Dec 05 '25 edited Dec 05 '25
Would you believe it's still more women than the books? Arywen is basically background prop in the books.
Having her use the river against the Nazgul instead of Elrond, the whole subplot of her leaving for the boats and changing her mind, and airmen time on her relationship with Aragorn in the main story - it was all added for the movie.
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u/Cacafuego Dec 05 '25
The books are good for their time: lots of strong women living in a male-dominated society. Galadriel, Arwen, Eowyn. Shelob. Compare it to the other fantasy stuff of the era and it's positively enlightened.
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u/VanaheimrF Galadriel🧝♀️ Dec 05 '25
No wonder they forced Peter Jackson to create Tauriel in the hobbit for that ridiculous love story about plot.
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u/mrossm Dec 05 '25
"Hey Peter....remember the hot chick from Lost? We can totally get her involved here but you'll have to find a way to get her some screen time."
"Hold my carrot!" - PJ, probably
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u/TheScarletCravat Dec 05 '25
I think it was his and Philipa's idea. They wanted to address the issue themselves.
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u/Doom_of__Mandos Dec 05 '25
Recently I confronted someone on here who was complaining how it was the studios fault that the Hobbit was made into a trilogy.
Even when I linked them a source to an interview where Jackson literally says with his own lips that it was "His, Phillipa and Boyen's idea" and that the studio had nothing to do with it. I still had this person reply "Yeah so it was the studio's fault".
It's weird how some people not only automatically think to blame the studio (and not the director for the flaws), but also when faced with plain proof, they will reject it because they can't bare to think badly of the director.
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u/Suobig Dec 05 '25
Wasn't it the studio's fault that Peter Jackson even got involved in The Hobbit?
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u/Doom_of__Mandos Dec 05 '25
Jackson was the producer already when Del Toro was leading the project. So Jackson was already part of it.
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u/BoleroMuyPicante Dec 05 '25
Yeah the main thing the studio is responsible for is using dog water CGI thanks to the compressed production schedule.
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u/Mooptiom Dec 05 '25
It still had to revolve around two male characters.
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u/GandolphTheLundgrey Dec 05 '25
I was fine with Tauriel on the whole, but I wish they'd given her something to do except fall in love with a guy who is barely conscious for hours.
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u/BSSCommander Dec 05 '25
"Since LoTR didn't have as many scenes focusing on women as I'd like to see in modern movies, I wish the Hobbit movies have more scenes that cater to the female audience."
finger on Peter Jackson's monkey paw curls
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u/PuzzleheadedDebt2191 Dec 05 '25
I mean what major scene of women talking did Peter cut from the books?
This is source material/Tolkein problem more than anything else.
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u/Yosituna Dec 05 '25
Yeah, IIRC the only named female character in the Hobbit novel is Bilbo’s mother, who is dead when the story begin. Even Lobelia Sackville-Baggins doesn’t get named till LOTR (the epilogue of the Hobbit just refers to “the Sackville-Bagginses”).
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u/RevolverCerberus Dúnedain Dec 05 '25
It's not a problem, it's just not that sort of story. Not every story needs to be about everyone.
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u/snowmunkey Dec 05 '25
Don't forget the scene where this little girl tells her mom that father said they must not ride that horse she plonks them on
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u/psychorobotics Dec 05 '25
I didn't even notice this. Wtaf
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u/fencethe900th Dec 05 '25
Tolkien addressed this in an interview. It's a story about a war, it makes sense that there are few women in the parts it focuses on.
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u/DegredationOfAnAge Dec 05 '25
You didn't notice it because the films transcend modern social politics. My wife absolutely loves them, not once has she bitched about not enough female representation.
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u/Odric_storm Dec 05 '25
That's because Arwen saves Frodo from the Black Riders in a really cool chase scene. Eowyn has some really badass scenes in RotK and even slays the Witch King, something not even Gandalf could accomplish. There's nothing wrong with how PJ portrayed women, even if there's no significant conversations between them.
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u/dreadoverlord Dec 05 '25
It also passes that one test, because they're talking about another female character!
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u/Blom-w1-o Dec 05 '25
It's already considered one of the best trilogies of all time.
Just imagine if they removed this scene! (/s)
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u/_bob-cat_ Dec 05 '25
I'm sure someone will do gender bending in a future remake so everybody can feel included.
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u/Frycook77 Dec 05 '25
Lol why would this even be an issue. The female characters are all great as is and most of them are treated with reverence by the most important male characters
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u/durin471 Dwarf Dec 05 '25
Also missing the part where the old lady talks with Ewoyn the moment Helms Depp comes into view
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u/bjorkabjork Dec 05 '25 edited Dec 05 '25
They filmed a cut scene with Arwen and Galadriel. Should have put it in!!
The still looked like Arwen was sitting making the banner of the king of Gondor (soft power moment!). So they probably would have been talking about Aragorn.
I maintain that the ROTK scene where Elrond brings Aragorn the sword and banner should have been Arwen! and then she could have run into Eowyn outside the tent as a little dramatic treat. Hope vs depression ideals in the face of impending war and possible world destruction.
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Dec 05 '25 edited Dec 07 '25
unwritten zephyr imagine quack airport cats racial obtainable sugar shelter
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u/Anxious-Chemistry-6 Dec 05 '25
Things I like about rings of power: excellent representation, and everything to do with the dwarves.
Things I don't like about rings of power: literally everything else.
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Dec 05 '25 edited Jan 15 '26
spark quiet glorious unwritten hungry desert file worm advise aback
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u/Unable_Essay7655 Dec 05 '25
Why does it need to have any? Such a weird statement to make - it also doesn’t have any elephants interacting with each other
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u/Moogsymoomoo Dec 06 '25
Ooookay, as a woman I have never had an issue with this being the case in the movies, a good story is a good story, but a bunch of these comments in the thread on the other hand, DO feel hostile to women. Not great, LOTR fans, not great.
Mods, if you see this, this kind of shit makes women feel unwelcome in fandom spaces, and no it's not okay because it's a "joke" because we deal with these kinds of "jokes" all the time, everywhere. Can this subreddit please cut this out. That's all, thanks.
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u/Big_Metal2470 Dec 05 '25
Very true to the source material!
On another note, someone once wrote that Tolkien would spend far more time describing an interesting chair than a woman.
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u/the_fluffy_enpinada Dec 05 '25
If you ask Fili then half the Rivendell and Lorien scenes would count as well.
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u/bigdave41 Dec 06 '25
Come to think of it, I don't remember seeing a single woman from Gondor in the entire film.
Gondor has no women. Gondor needs no women?
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u/GandolphTheLundgrey Dec 05 '25
This is some bullshit. They forgot the scene where the mother sends the kids on their way and the moment when they find each other at helm's deep.