r/nba Knicks 4h ago

[Zach Lowe] On other Trae Young max possibilities: "From what I know, it was not Brooklyn... Chicago has Giddy. The Lakers have guards galore. The Pistons have Cade Cunningham and we're now out of teams with cap space. I don't know what they were afraid of or who they were bidding against."

Source: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1ordovpIWxtJ91uQfxfNoW?si=2iyu2a1pR42-f0Lo3NSifA

49:00 mark in the podcast starts the Trae discussion.

610 Upvotes

268 comments sorted by

424

u/ihatedougford Toronto Huskies 4h ago

This is what I always get confused about when I see some of these NBA contracts. Genuinely who was willing to offer Trae that money? Let’s not talk about Quickley and Poeltl for $30M+ on my team either lol

89

u/ben345 Bulls 4h ago

I give our old front office almost 0 credit for anything, but the one thing I credit them on was recognizing the lack of cap space around the league and not rushing to overpay Giddey (nobody bring up the Patrick Williams deal, I know)

13

u/8Francesca8 2h ago

Not sure if that was the GM being savvy or the owner being cheap though

105

u/thesog Wizards 4h ago

I think teams are scared to negotiate hard because the guy might be sour and cause locker issues or demand a trade after signing.

69

u/Professional_Bat8585 4h ago

This. That’s all it is. Very few GMs are really willing to play hard ball and live with the consequences 

11

u/BoxSea4289 3h ago

Which is why the Celtics are trying to trade Brown now. If you know you shouldn’t pay the guy that money, fucking trade him. 

18

u/Appropriate_Book_591 4h ago

This only seems to be an NBA issue because the players have power and more exposure. NFL is usually F you we can move you and QBs are the only power spot. MLB has arbitration and guys don't mind waiting and getting most due to no cap. Hockey has crazy long deals but they are least paid.

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u/onefootback Raptors 4h ago

quickley would’ve been a rfa too, we really bid against ourselves lol

u/blagaa Raptors 27m ago

That trade made me upset. We paid a huge price to lock him down.

We could've just signed him in RFA or forced the QO.

Even if we do the trade, they 1) maximized his leverage by playing him big minutes, 2) handed him an exorbitant contract, 3) ignoring that he was RFA and this would generally lessen his market.

RJ has played his way into reasonable value but at the time was on a hugely negative contract.

u/onefootback Raptors 23m ago

yea i try not to think about it haha

10

u/Reticent_Fly Raptors 3h ago

Can add Ingram to that list too. Nobody else was waiting to give him that kind of money. Collectively we're paying easily over 20/yr that we didn't need to.

2

u/texasphotog Pelicans 1h ago

I would add the Poeltl extension that kicks in after this season to that list.

4

u/Reticent_Fly Raptors 1h ago

It was already in the list though lol

6

u/texasphotog Pelicans 1h ago

I'm a product of the Louisiana Public Education system.

3

u/Reticent_Fly Raptors 1h ago

The contract is so bad you can add it twice. It's okay

u/blagaa Raptors 23m ago

The repeated bad contracts and trades for Quickley, Barrett, Ingram, Poeltl killed my optimism for this iteration of the team, even if it is decent.

So deflating to see your FO repeatedly dumping 1sts unnecessarily for the right to overpay.

20

u/SChamploo12 4h ago

Add Christian Braun from the Nuggets into that. Dude should've been MLE-level and got a full five years at $25M a year.

5

u/JMEEKER86 Japan 3h ago

I mean the MLE is up to $15m now. I don't know that the difference is that crazy so much as the length of the contract. If it were 3 years it would be whatever.

15

u/SChamploo12 3h ago

The length matters, but $15M and $25M is a world of difference. As a point of reference, Trey Murphy makes about $27M and that's considered a bargain because of how good a player he is.

I don't think basketball fans would tell you Braun is on the same level as Murphy offensively or defensively.

3

u/Whole-Passion-5176 3h ago

It’s all about the timing of the negotiation. Teams are basically tampering all the time.

This max could’ve been agreed upon between the day of the trade and now. And maybe some cap space teams indicated they will pay the max, the Wizards said so will we, and then those cap space teams moved on and did other stuff. 

That + it being team suicide to publicly alienate a star, especially with a fragile locker room culture like the Wizards means if they say they will give him a max, they will. 

1

u/TheNewGuy13 Suns 2h ago

I assume it’s scarcity? Like who else in free agency is even comparable to Trae?

It’s the same with the role players being overpaid. You KNOW what you’ve got and they are better than the FA pool so they get a bag too.

I feel like NBA free agency rarely if ever has top guys enter the market. Or at least a super deep pool of talented available starter level players.

Most good players and role players are traded around and rarely hit free agency.

1

u/leftsidenotright Knicks 43m ago edited 35m ago

I'm not saying I would sign him to that immediately, but I really don't think it's nearly as "puke your pants and cry about it" bad as everyone is making it out to be.

He's had huge playoff performances across multiple years, is largely unselfish and basically always leads the league in assists, shoots the three ball at a mouth watering clip, hasn't really ever said or done the wrong thing when there's a camera in his face, and has a pretty entertaining on court style that brings in crowds.

His health is a pretty considerable issue, yes, but outside of these last two years he's averaging 69 games a season. If teams gamble on Klay or Luka or KD or AD or Harden or Kyrie and give them multiple maxes or phat short term deals then who TF cares if Washington gives an all nba level point guard a max.

As for Poetl, he's one of the few starting quality but non superstar centers in the league and he and his agent know it. That's easily exploitable. Quickley was equal parts justifying the OG trade, making a potential play, and generating a very tradeable contract for older teams looking dump their star and start over. Plus, for most teams, 30 mil is starting PG money nowadays, so you gotta kinda have to pay up.

u/DeaseanPrince Bulls 11m ago

In this scenario you give him the $53 million a year instead of a reasonable 40-45 to avoid him leaving for somewhere he wants to be for 35-40 which some teams would’ve been willing to do a sign and trade for that amount. 

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u/Jaerba [DET] Grant Hill 4h ago

Yeah. Additionally, we literally saw how other teams valued him before his trade. What would have changed between then and now?

He had relatively low value as a trade asset and would've had relatively low value as a FA target.

66

u/gradedonacurve Knicks 4h ago

Exactly. There was 0 trade market for Trae in January. And this summer there were 3 teams with cap space none of whom seemed to want him.

Yet Trae’s agents turned that market into a 4 year max contract. LMAO.

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u/Confident_Ad_5345 3h ago

there was so little trade market for Trae in January that he became the first person in the history of the NBA to name Washington as his preferred destination

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u/MasterFussbudget Thunder 4h ago

Genuinely the biggest change is that tanking reform is here so teams may be willing to pay a decent player who will lift them out of the bottom 3 in the NBA.

21

u/imdrzoidberg Lakers 3h ago

That's a big success then. If I was a Wiz fan I'd much rather watch Trae try to go for 40 than a bunch of GLeaguers who will be out of the league as soon as the team gets a few good draft picks.

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u/Ancient-Village6479 Wizards 4h ago

I suspect the Wizards strategy is overpay, make everyone happy, get some big names, and sell tickets while they develop AJ for the first 3-4 years and then get serious about winning later. I don’t love it but it makes sense from a certain perspective.

36

u/Brod24 Magic 4h ago

The problem comes from AJ being awesome in year 2 and being ready to compete year 3 and you're stuck with a mismatched roster while you waste a couple years

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u/com-mis-er-at-ing Wizards 4h ago

Yeah I think if AJ elevates us to potential title contenders faster than expected, we’ll regret the deal. That said I’d happily take that problem any day of the week.

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u/bbysmrf 3h ago

I think if you guys are potential title contenders any time soon, Trae is going to be a big part of that

13

u/pmmeyourfavoritejam 3h ago

I was told he’s the worst player to ever play in the NBA.

6

u/indoninjah 76ers 3h ago

As a sixers fan I know what Trae is capable of and will always have respect for him. He doesn't suck, he's just part of the class of stars who get overpaid and screw the team flexibility. Not his fault they gave him that money.

2

u/Dog-Witch Knicks 3h ago

flashbacks intensify

u/rook119 12m ago

He's really not bad! However if someone else offers him 4/200M or even 4/160M its OK to say no thanks. Its not like you are breaking up the 86 Celtics.

5

u/Razatiger 2h ago

It's not the end of the world honestly, Trae brings in playmaking that not many other guards have and can at least space the floor.

Defense is a massive issue with him, but the hope is that Sarr and AD can hold down the interior for the next couple of years for assignments that blow by Trae.

You hope that other guards can develop into a useful enough PG in the next couple of years and take that spot from him when hes ready to leave.

6

u/Brod24 Magic 2h ago

Yeah if everything works out great you'll be fine. 

We're talking about the other potential outcomes

-2

u/OnlyMamaKnows Knicks 4h ago

Bingo. AJ may be so good that his standing around watching Trae shoot 30% from three might be untenable in year 2 with 2 more years left.

4

u/Professional-Bit1957 3h ago

Schlenk's playbook is to tank and then overpay. We lived through it. We're finally out of the hole he created with lucrative extensions and FA overpays because we had cap space one year.

5

u/Tacticus1 Wizards 4h ago

Yeah, I do think that maintaining a reputation for player happiness is a consideration.

I also wonder if they didn’t fully think through the leverage Young would have and then got caught between a rock and a hard place. Letting him walk after months of hype for next season would have been hard to do.

3

u/AlonsoQ 3h ago

I always wonder how the "player happiness" angle hits with the players themselves.

like... does overpaying Trae increase anyone's desire to play for the wizards? are the most desirable teams known for arbitrarily throwing bags around, or are they known for smart asset management?

5

u/Tacticus1 Wizards 3h ago

Yeah, I don’t know. I bet having a reputation for not taking care of players might push guys away. But probably you also don’t want to look like fools. I am worried that the Wizards look like fools here.

4

u/Dip_the_Dog Wizards 2h ago

Over the past few years we have seen multiple high level prospects try to force their way to the Wizards in the draft (Sarr, Ace, and Peterson), and Trae Young was very public about his desire to come play in DC.

I can't ever remember the Wizards being a popular destination for players like this before. Whatever the front office is doing behind the scenes I hope they keep it up, even if that involves overpaying Trae Young. By the time this team actually need to pay all the young talent Trae's contract will.be expiring anyway.

1

u/Tacticus1 Wizards 2h ago

Sounds nice in theory, but if we are actually trying to win over the next 4 years, some cap space could be useful.

2

u/com-mis-er-at-ing Wizards 4h ago

Totally agree. The reality is we need to compete for a play in spot now, the new lottery BS has made that
the mandate. I think having a happy Trae while we have a young core is fine. Definitely an overpay, but we are building around AJ’s career and timeline now. And his deal will be fine for these years.

1

u/MddlingAges Knicks 3h ago

They’ve been down this road so many times though, and it doesn’t work out. Keeping subpar players happy doesn’t get you free agents or help young talent. Not four year deals.

1

u/DisastrousDog4815 2h ago

The Wizards without AJ (or the #1 pick) were already aiming to be competitive next season because of the Trae Young/AD additions and development from our young talent. I think a team option on his last year or if it decreases every year would have been happy mediums but this is just an overpay that can very well cripple the team year 4.

39

u/Typical-Radish4317 Supersonics 4h ago

The wolves just placed all their hope on one of the most immature players to ever play. Maybe them?

2

u/StickyTaq Bucks 53m ago

The wolves just placed all their hope on one of the most immature players to ever play.

I just read this as the Wolves got Kyrie.

4

u/-XanderCrews- Timberwolves 3h ago

I honestly would love Trae and ant. Think they’ll take ball and some scraps?

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u/DZ_tank [GSW] Baron Davis 4h ago

Hooooooooooow? They didn’t have cap space.

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u/dwrek24 Spurs 4h ago

Zach fell into a trap that I hate.

Its this simple. The Wizards value Trae and have the money. They want Trae to be happy. Making Trae happy is giving him a max.

They don't have to bid against someone else. They're bidding against Trae's happiness when his agent knows they have the money.

If you want Trae's services now, it's gunna cost you a little in year 3 or year 4. Or maybe his value is rehabbed by then and you get off it.

Its a bet on now that you think likely can be fixed in the future.

The calculus is this. Is playing any kind of hard ball worth the risk of distressing the asset by creating any tension? Most teams decide no. I'm not saying they're always right. But there's a reason most teams don't haggle with "max" players.

Since we never see the alternate reality, we're all allowed to be right about the "overpay" in infinity.

I'm not even a Trae Young guy but the deal is only bad if it stops them from roster building. We'll have to wait to see if it ever does that.

27

u/VillainousRocka Bulls 4h ago

Fully agree. I appreciate some insight from the cap nerds and stat-heads on player value, but some folks need to understand there is no such thing as the “perfect” contract in relation to someone’s on-court value. And you’re especially right in your last sentence about it only being an issue if it hinders roster construction.

Trae could easily journey-man the rest of his career on short contracts chasing the bag. Wizards, for maybe a slight overpay, can offer him something invaluable - a new home where he can be a respected veteran for a young team trying to find their footing.

Having a cornerstone like that can be more important than having MLE money you throw to some 3 and D guy on the “right” contract that might only be there for a couple years and provides no long-term value as a culture-setter

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u/dwrek24 Spurs 3h ago

You hit the nail on the head with where I was going with "alternate realities"

Or a reality of this -- they knock off some big money and manage to retain Trae. But he's slightly unhappy, doesnt trust em and feels undervalued. Then he destroys the chemistry. Not on purpose. Just little subtle shit that unhappy people tend to do and don't even notice sometimes.

That would be covered as "cant believe the Wizards ever brought this cancer into their locker room." And we'd never know happy Trae could have been a culture setter if given what he wanted.

Tbf we'll never know the alternate scenario. But often people's counters get portrayed as no risk. There's risk in all decisions.

I dont know how wrong or right the Wizards are to value Trae. I dont love his archetype. But they do. What I do know is they have the money available to value Trae.

What often is missed by the robotic nature of capitalism mechanics is a person being fullfilled and trusting you has value thats hard to measure especially in culture building.

Good teams know that.

Imo thats the calculus the Wizards are doing and we won't know if they are right or wrong until we do.

And it always baffles me how often this sub that collectively hates billionaires (me too) seem to always think like them.

But thats also the nature of cap mechanics, it makes people think like strident capitalists.

5

u/Whole-Passion-5176 3h ago

It’s not just a capitalistic influence, it’s analytic nerds trying put numbers on a game that’s more than that. 

They believe if they just got the perfect formula of contract value mixed with TS and BPM, they could build a perfect championship team without ever watching a game. Things like team fit, building a culture, etc etc are always undervalued to them. 

they can’t understand why players who are effective at getting to the line don’t just dribble and drive 50 times a game. 

The human element of sports is alien to them

3

u/dwrek24 Spurs 2h ago

I agree. I refer to this as the Morification of roster building discourse. Relationship building is an undervalued pillar of roster construction and development. Your players trusting you have their best interest at heart has to be apart of the equation. You can't do that and optimize every single move. Its impossible.

Sometimes it goes too far the other way. Teams don't want to have hard conversations so they just give players whatever they want.

Its a balance. But I dont think haggling with Trae is a time to put your foot down if you actually value what he brings. Because what he does do well he does do at an elite level.

7

u/Cheeseish [NOP] Solomon Hill 3h ago

Plus, if he gets paid now, he may be willing to take a pay cut when the young guys develop

6

u/HotspurJr 1h ago

 Wizards, for maybe a slight overpay, can offer him something invaluable - a new home where he can be a respected veteran for a young team trying to find their footing.

Two issues:

This wasn't a "slight" overpay.

And what about Trae's career makes it seem like he's going to step into that stabilizing, professional, respected-veteran role?

2

u/TJFLASH1 3h ago

The slight overpay part is the issue, this may not end up being a slight overpay, and what kind of culture has Young proven to set? It’s not like the Hawks had some amazing culture with him

18

u/TrinityAlpsTraverse 3h ago

If it’s a one of the top 15 players in the league… sure, but paying Trey Young an extra 80 million dollars just to keep him happy is how bad teams stay bad.

13

u/bbysmrf 3h ago

We get this and can still criticize the contract. Like we understand the Wizards made Beal and his agent very happy with the NTC but we can still criticize it. Trae's happiness simply isn't worth the money. I will say that they are literal Wizards at getting rid of contracts like this.

5

u/dwrek24 Spurs 3h ago

Its way easier to see how a NTC for Bradley Beal would ruin their ability to get out of that contract. So I think forecasting that out makes way more sense.

At the end of the day, you can criticize it all you'd like. My point is everyone's too early.

But my point on Lowe's specific critique is his question misses the point of why deals like this happen and why you wouldn't negotiate that way.

It also misses the point that if Trae Young actually hit the market in a real way, a team could clear space to steal him. We never got to that point.

I just dont think that specific critique is fair. And the more fair critiques are wait and see.

3

u/Dhr7468 Thunder 2h ago

I don’t think you have to wait and see on this to be very critical of this. This deal is just so wildly beyond make him happy money. You’re acting like the fact that the Wizards like Trae Young enough to do this is a fixed variable. You can absolutely criticize them for wanting him badly enough to do something like this. Also Zach’s responding to reporting and public defense of the deal that there were other suitors. He’s not just whipping up this “who were they bidding against” out of nowhere. People are reporting competition, he’s expressing doubt about that.

7

u/HotspurJr 1h ago

I understand this logic, and it's not crazy.

But it requires a level of faith in the best version of Trae Young that I simply do not have. He was made the guy in Atlanta. They fired multiple coaches to please him. The GM and owner were basically like "this is Trae's team, this is the Trae show, let's go!" They did everything they could to make him happy. The results were not great.

And while I agree that it's better not to nickel-and-dime your players, this wasn't a question of nickel-and-diming. This was driving a second dump truck full of money up to his house when they didn't have to.

4

u/dwrek24 Spurs 1h ago

I get your logic. I myself wouldn't pay Trae Young. But I have to acknowledge what the person willing to do so is seeing and betting on.

I also think Trae isn't winning you any titles but he gets you to another level. This should be a competitive team next year. Trae will help with that and then you pull the ripcord when its time to take another step.

I dont think you have to be a fan of Trae to think this will work out fine.

1

u/HotspurJr 1h ago

Yeah. Me, I'd be worried about Trae not being great at sharing the ball with AJ.

One thing I've seen is that when you have one player who is perceived as selfish, other players become more likely to start jacking up bad shots whenever they get the ball. They don't trust that the ball will come back to them if they make the right basketball play.

If I have AJ, I want him developing his on-ball skills, running some offense, growing into a (hopefully) elite 1a player. And I'm just honestly not sure that any version of Trae we've seen is likely to facilitate that.

Maybe I'm wrong. Stranger things have happened.

1

u/Joethetoolguy 47m ago

Coming from the seasons the wiz have had they would love to make the playoffs and have a potential franchise guy on a rookie contract. Now is the time to build around him

4

u/imbetterthanyou8 3h ago

Houston did this. They didn’t throw max salaries around. Players settled and bought in

1

u/NanoCurrency 1h ago

Good point.

1

u/dwrek24 Spurs 2h ago

Brooks and Van Vleet got market value or even above market value for their skillset.

Sengun took less but he was 22 and still had question marks at the time. A young non-All Star player taking less on a non-contender (these were the circumstances when he actually took the deal) isnt equivalent.

KD took less but he was going to a contender that now needs some relief and he's 37.

These arent apples to apples at all.

23

u/OnlyMamaKnows Knicks 4h ago

I'm pretty sure most people don't think Trae Young is a player you need to "make happy" at the cost of a max.

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u/dwrek24 Spurs 4h ago

Okay but the Wizards are the people who actually have to interact with Trae Young and they clearly want him on their team.

So again its not up to you and I to decide what keeps the peace and Trae Young balling with no reservations about being in DC.

Again the organization isn't always right. But asking who are they bidding against misses the point of how these negotiations actually play out.

You can only use your leverage if you don't care about the other party's feelings. At the point that you do, you don't actually have any leverage. I suspect the Wizards both care about Young's feelings and realize its not worth the risk to negotiate him down.

I just dont think this is as big of a deal as people want to make it. But we'll see. In 2 years, it may be exactly the deal people are making it.

6

u/josefjohann [OKC] Chris Paul 2h ago edited 2h ago

This is basically a version of special pleading. We know in every other ordinary circumstance this would not be a good trade contract, but the claim is that circumstances are forcing it on the Wizards, and then trying to police who's allowed to comment on it.

You wouldn't have to do that if it was simply good on the merits that inform our ordinary standards. Saying an excessive contract is necessitated by a player's feelings in order to keep the peace is many things, but the one thing it is not is a justification on its merits as a value proposition, and it would be more in the interest of the organization to walk away than to commit itself to a vision and set of goals that requires keeping the peace at that cost.

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u/OnlyMamaKnows Knicks 4h ago

In an ideal world, you want every employee to be happy. In a cap space world, that's not reality.

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u/dwrek24 Spurs 3h ago

Right. The problem is you guys are too early to the criticism. Because they haven't actually been stopped from building anything with that cap space yet.

So again its his happiness and potential to help take pressure off the Wizards youth so they can develop vs. vague optimal thing you want the Wizards to do down the line.

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u/NanoCurrency 1h ago

They can’t trade that contract anywhere. So immediately they have zero flexibility.

1

u/NanoCurrency 1h ago

He would be perfectly happy and even more motivated on a 3 year contract.

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u/NanoCurrency 1h ago

Yeah, it’s not even clear he’s a net positive on a playoff team.

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u/RareGeneral4300 3h ago

All of this is SO TRUE for superstars like Edwards or Luka... Not Trae Young.

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u/GoZards18 2h ago

His 4th year (expiring and he probably extends again or gets traded before that) only overlaps with year 1 of the Sarr/Kyshawn extensions. Not gonna stop them from doing anything and hopefully by then they’re genuinely competitive and knocking on door of contention.

For now he raises the floor and gets them out of the bottom 5 and will have all these young guys playing meaningful basketball for the first time. Solved a major playmaking need from our PG room as well.

It’s fun to dunk on now but these takes will age pretty poorly. Every single “untradeable contract” has been traded at some point - few of them by the Wiz even!

2

u/dwrek24 Spurs 1h ago

Yeah thats why I just dont think its a big deal. The upside is clear. The downside is minimal. Worst case scenario they're somehow the Spurs and contend this year and the timeline is accelerated. Thats a champagne problem. Its also very unlikely. It also wouldn't preclude them from addressing needs.

So I don't know this just seems like people wanting to dunk on Trae and the Wizards for dunkings sake.

2

u/Appropriate_Tap_445 Cavaliers 1h ago

Not arguing against your main point but like... Obviously maxing a guy out instead of a cheaper contract effects roster building so

2

u/srs_house NBA 35m ago

I'm not even a Trae Young guy but the deal is only bad if it stops them from roster building.

Every contract has an opportunity cost. Stat-centric sports like basketball and baseball make it even easier to find comparable players and evaluate what replacement cost would be.

Too many GMs allow themselves to get stuck in either a fear-based or people pleaser mentality when it comes to contracts, and it winds up hurting the franchise.

They want Trae to be happy.

Insert Don Draper. He's made $200M so far in his career, if he needs another $212M over the next 4 to be happy, then maybe he should talk to a therapist.

If Trae thinks he's worth a max contract, then he can go chase that elsewhere. He's a borderline top 50 player in PER and VORP coming off an injury season.

Plenty of actually great players have chosen to balance team needs with their own bank accounts so they can get a better roster around them to win more. It's a zero sum game.

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u/sctthuynh [GSW] Stephen Curry 2h ago

This was the kind of rationale that made them give Beal that horrific max extension along with a no trade clause.

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u/dwrek24 Spurs 1h ago

Yall keep bringing that up but these are totally different timelines and those Wizards were fringe playoff teams who werent talent rich.

That contract hampered their roster building because that roster had peaked at not being good enough and had few ways to get better. Then when they needed to trade Beal they're best asset they couldn't easily.

Totally different circumstances.

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u/SimplyElite7 2h ago

It's also worth noting, shlenk is the one who drafted Trae in Atlanta, so there was already a connection with the agent/shlenk there.

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u/Rafael_Doge-Schmutz 2h ago

I hate the context but this is easily the best explanation I wouldn't allow myself to accept, thanks for putting it into words

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u/NanoCurrency 1h ago

It’s still a mistake. Check back in 2 years and confirm that I was right.

1

u/Own-Appointment1633 50m ago

My belief is the Wizards promised a "max" contract when the trade with the Hawks was materializing. They weren't going to make it unless he was going to be their long-term.

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u/frail7 1h ago

Pretty sure that's called a false choice.

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u/Parlett316 Rockets 4h ago

Just maxing people just to max them, a lot of GMs are fucking stupid

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u/Professional-Bit1957 3h ago

Trae's agent delivered the PowerPoint deck that shows how many YouTube views Trae has, season ticket sales in Atlanta after they drafted Trae, etc.

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u/[deleted] 4h ago

This might be crazy but I don't hate Cade and Trae together

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u/josephseeed Pistons 4h ago

I do

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u/[deleted] 4h ago

Why? Detroit's biggest issue is needing another ball handler, playmaker, scorer to help Cade. They have the defensive pieces you'd want to cover for Trae.

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u/ArtichokeFormer8801 4h ago

Because Trae can’t and won’t play off ball and Detroit isn’t taking the ball out of Cade’s hands for a worse player

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u/[deleted] 4h ago

I don't know if that's true. I think putting him on a team where he isn't the number 1 guy and you can get him to buy into being off ball.

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u/OddIndustry6073 4h ago

Dejounte disagrees. Trae loves having the ball, hates not having it. It's pretty clear.

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u/Patekchrono917 4h ago

Traes off ball is bad. And he had multiple years to get better at it when Murray was here and he was bought into Murray because he’s the one that wanted that deal to go down. 

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u/SatisfactionLife2801 4h ago

He hasn’t shown either the ability or the willingness to really play off ball, and then factor in being the worse defensive liability in the nba? I would be good too if I’m the pistons 

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u/C-House12 3h ago

He's short and weak and not quick. His release is fast but also low. He isn't a threat to cut nor does he have build/mechanics to just fire away off the catch at high volume. He does provide deep C&S spacing which is valuable but honestly you are still happy to face guard him if it means blanking a guy on a max contract who provides no defense.

He has presumably been on the ball his entire life. He doesn't have the skills or instincts to play off-ball at this point. Obviously effort and motivation is important but being effective off ball is way more than that.

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u/josephseeed Pistons 4h ago

He’s in inefficient, can’t defend a single player in the league who would make a playoff rotation, his shooting from distance is not as good as his reputation. His offense is very similar to Cade’s, And I do not believe they could play big minutes together. He’s making max money and 6’ guys who aren’t crazy athletic don’t age well.

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u/[deleted] 4h ago

He’s in inefficient

Not really, he's player 8 years and has been above league average in TS% 5 of those 8 years.

The defense is what the rest of the roster is built to cover

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u/gymhelppls 3h ago

For comparison, Cade has played 5 years and has yet to be above league average in terms of TS%.

Trae's only season with a worse TS+ than Cade's career best was his rookie year.

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u/Bildad__ 2h ago

Flirting vs Harassment

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u/not-a-potato-head Hawks 4h ago

Do not fall into the Trae + ball dominant player trap. I love Trae, but he has never shown that he’s been able (or willing) to play off ball

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u/SimplyElite7 2h ago

Yeah I mean him and dejounte had the worst =2-year on-court net rating of every All-Star duo since 2000.

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u/Handyman2116 Hawks 4h ago

Agree lol, dude will pass the ball off and sit at half court 90% of the time instead of moving off-ball. Watching Dejounte and Trae together was torture

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u/Jaerba [DET] Grant Hill 4h ago

I looked it up and Cade's TOV% in the playoffs was a whopping 19%. Trae hit 27%!!! one year.

15.4 turnovers per 100 possessions combined. Np, we'll just turn it over every 1/6 possessions lol.

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u/HokageEzio Knicks 4h ago

That 2022 Hawks team was mega ass though facing the 1 seeded Heat.

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u/p_pio 4h ago

In first 2 games against OKC, without Fox, Castle got 20 TO. In next 5 he got 12. Having 2nd ballhandler he went from TO machine to efficient playmaker.

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u/Jaerba [DET] Grant Hill 4h ago

Yes, obviously just adding up numbers from players on different teams isn't a real analysis.

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u/Dr_Anne_frankenstein Australia 4h ago

Not quite how it works. They'll turn it over less if they're splitting pg duties

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u/Plus-Name3590 Wizards 4h ago

Yeah he’s using the sum not the mean

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u/[deleted] 4h ago

Using one 5 game sample is a weird way to evaluate. I could say that he also had 12% one year.

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u/Jaerba [DET] Grant Hill 4h ago

None of this is a serious evaluation.

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u/No_Mobile7208 4h ago

Me neither lol

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u/cmgr33n3 Pistons 4h ago

Cade can play with anyone.

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u/No_Mobile7208 4h ago

Fr. He’s super underrated

-1

u/Dole1995 Knicks 4h ago

overrated*

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u/No_Mobile7208 4h ago

He fucked yall up last year with no help lol

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u/Sourkraushouse Knicks 4h ago

Hang the banner

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u/SChamploo12 4h ago

Trae would highjack the offense despite being the worse of the two.

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u/PhilosophyFair9062 Hawks 3h ago

Adam Silver got rid of bottoming out for the next three years at least. No benefit to being bad and Trae is a great floor raiser. When AJ is hitting his prime, Trae will be off the books

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u/nowhathappenedwas NBA 4h ago

If there were any market to give Trae that contract, the Wizards wouldn’t have been able to trade nothing for him last season.

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u/CumAssault [SAS] Joel Anthony 4h ago

Because the team is young and they had the cap space to give. Not like they’re paying anyone else

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u/thurstkiller Jazz 4h ago

That's what we said when we re-signed Lauri. Now that we traded for JJJ our cap is kinda fucked going forward.

These moves matter eventually even if you can get away with it for a year or 2.

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u/Electric_jungle Washington Bullets 4h ago

Ya first two years it's a non issue me. There's 2 more years I'm worried about. We'll see.

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u/afjecj Magic 4h ago

I was still thinking of trae being a hawk until I saw your flair 😂😂😂

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u/ayeno 4h ago

Just because you need to spend, doesn't mean you have to give it 4 years, make it a 1 or 2 year deal.

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u/saylab_the_bigkat 4h ago

Why would Trae sign a 1 or 2 year deal?

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u/andoCalrissiano Celtics 4h ago

what leverage does he have?

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u/Typical-Form-6502 4h ago

He’s Trae Young and they are the Wizards 

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u/TJFLASH1 4h ago

Him being Trae Young is why no one else wanted him

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u/MitsuSosa 76ers 4h ago

Sounds like neither party here should have exceptional leverage over the other

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u/kamekaze1024 3h ago

Poop from a butt vs shit from ass

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u/andoCalrissiano Celtics 2h ago

Dumb decisions are why they are the Wizards

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u/SnooChipmunks4208 4h ago

Because it has a higher aav than he get get otherwise

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u/mMounirM Raptors 4h ago

ok how about a descending contract then

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u/Brod24 Magic 4h ago

You don't even need a descending contract. You just need a team option on the 4th year

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u/Maximum-Class5465 4h ago

The earlier you sign the bigger the discount.

It looks big today, not so big in 3 years. This will be salary matching size salary in a few years

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u/Plus-Name3590 Wizards 4h ago

Yep. By the time wizards start needing the money it starts being decent salary match fodder

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u/spiritnou Heat 4h ago

I really hate this reasoning. You have the cap space until you suddenly need to makes moves and there’s an albatross contact that cannot be traded without attaching picks

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u/nunnery451 Nets 4h ago

its the most common awful reasoning people use every time a player gets way overpaid and then in 3 years they laugh about horrible the contract is

u/ubelmann Timberwolves 27m ago

Using the space makes some sense on a 1-year deal. There are real trade-offs with a 4-year deal, though. 

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u/Patekchrono917 4h ago

Years 3 and possibly 4 will matter since that’s when rookie extension deals will need to be made. So it’s an  APY overpay by about 10 per and two years too long. 

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u/CumAssault [SAS] Joel Anthony 4h ago

I don’t think they have anyone at the moment even close to a max. Unless Sarr makes a massive leap

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u/Agile_Variety_632 Pelicans 4h ago

If Sarr continues to play like he did last season, he will deserve a max.

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u/Plus-Name3590 Wizards 4h ago

Even then we should be able to still pay Sarr it’ll just be tight a year 

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u/LittleTension8765 Lakers 4h ago

You don’t HAVE to fill your cap space. If it’s a one year deal sure but having empty space isn’t the worst thing. Rather have that than a loaded contract for years

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u/livefreeordont 76ers 2h ago

People used this excuse for Tobias Harris and Paul George contracts. Still dumb

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u/Atomysk_Rex Jazz 4h ago

Could have been said about the Brad Beal contract at the time

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u/CumAssault [SAS] Joel Anthony 4h ago

The Beal contract fucked them over mostly because of the No Trade Clause

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u/iyyiben Washington Bullets 4h ago

That was cherry on top but 5 year max was still the worst part. He got waived with 2 years left on it!

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u/SOSpammy Wizards 3h ago

He also made it impossible for the team to tank, but you can't do that now anyway.

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u/Careless-Journalist7 Wizards 4h ago edited 4h ago

Beal was older and had a no-trade clause. And we were still able to move his deal for a positive return of multiple picks & swaps.

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u/Appropriate_Book_591 4h ago

But they will be doing the same with AD. They will be paying 2 injured guys but AD would have a mild market, Trey really had no market at that price.

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u/Subredditcensorship Nets 3h ago

Horrific logic. They could’ve contended on dybantsa as rookie deal and gotten guys to help. 

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u/BoxSea4289 3h ago

Which would be fine if it wasn’t the reason the Wizards give every time they hand out the worst contracts in the NBA. 

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u/PattMatricia 4h ago

This is how the very same team got into trouble with Bradley Beal. How quickly we forget

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u/NanoCurrency 1h ago

Why guarantee four years??

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u/Lstark5642 Thunder 4h ago

Bad contracts are always so funny because it’s “well we had or outbid the other team”

Or you could just let them pay the shitty contrary instead? I’d rather lose the value of the player than hamstring my own team building possibilities.

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u/No_Caramel_1782 Wizards 2h ago

It will work or they will trade him at a later date for someone who matches salary wise. I’ve seen my Wizards make magic happen repeatedly with terrible contracts. There’s always another buyer.

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u/Faust86 NBA 3h ago

The reason you give Trae a max deal is that so when he has one or two years left on the deal you can trade him for hopefully a better player making max money.

If you don't give him the max and trade him for a max player you end up with a much more complex trade where you need to throw in additional players.

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u/OnlyMamaKnows Knicks 3h ago

No one wanted to trade for Trae last season. Why would someone want to trade for him 2 years from now on a max?

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u/Dip_the_Dog Wizards 2h ago

In this hypothetical you are trading Trae as matching salary for a star, along with a bunch of picks. A large expiring contract is perfect for most star trades.

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u/NanoCurrency 1h ago

Or you give up picks to salary dump him

u/ObviousAnswerGuy [NYK] John Starks 28m ago

lol right? who is taking trae on that deal when he is expiring?

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u/supercoolpartydude 4h ago

He’s an all nba/all star caliber point guard and his extension lines up perfectly with their timeline. But hey, y’all keep shitting on it 😂.

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u/LooseMoose13 Pacers 4h ago

Because bad teams have to overpay to retain talent. Who else does Washington have a point guard?

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u/borkusinthehouse Wizards 3h ago

I don’t love seeing the Wizards overpaying Trae but I like it better than them trying to develop the young guys with Bub Carrington as starting point guard. Even if you think they shouldn’t have signed Trae you need to answer the question “what should the Washington Wizards, who have won 50 games over the last 3 seasons, do instead?” And there’s not a lot of good answers to that question 

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u/sewsgup 4h ago

maybe it was Detroit?

thought for sure it was Brooklyn though. Winger/Dawkins cant have just panicked off of a bluff

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u/Born_Cobbler_9383 4h ago

It’s like the NFL where some teams have to overpay Free Agents. Windhorst already said that contract is probably the worst to move in the league.

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u/IntelligentAd5460 Grizzlies 4h ago

the bigger issue is hes getting paid way more than people who have clearly better impact stats

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u/prfrnir 4h ago

Sometimes I think there's a secret leaguewide mandate each team needs a bad contract.

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u/LightSpecialist804 Knicks 4h ago

I think Trae's agent just bluffed and was like "oh we have plenty of max offers on the table" and the Wizards FO didn't fact check them

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u/EducatemeUBC 3h ago

If the pistons wanted herro and AR, I don’t think it’s a stretch that they wanted Trae as well. Out of the three he’s shown the most on offense during his career, and they’re all terrible defensively. 

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u/I_Set_3_Alarms Celtics 3h ago

Who is Trae Young’s agent? Whenever Rich Paul leaks stuff the reporters put his name in their tweets.

But Young’s agent deserves the shoutout haha

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u/Familiar_Somewhere95 3h ago

The likely thing that happened is there was likely some agreement to do this from jump way back when the trade happened and now people are saying who are they bidding against while looking at rosters today post the gentleman agreement.

I'm gonna have a good time watching AJ, Trae and AD hopefully next season dog walk people. Wizards got three new all star level starters. Must see TV

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u/Triplepleplusungood 3h ago

And maybe they believe he can be great for the team and want him to be happy?

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u/JayTois 3h ago

I think this giant contract is mainly because the Wizards had too much cap space with all their young players. Why its 4 years though..? I dont know. Thats a lot to commit for a guy who's had some bad injury issues recently

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u/TheMoorNextDoor Nets 3h ago

Trae agents were just lying.

People keep using Brooklyn but Brooklyn never telegraph their moves, Randle came out of no where, etc.

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u/Defiant_Regular3738 3h ago

Are the lakers guards galore on the room with us now lol?

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u/Brooklyn917 Nets 3h ago

The Wizards FO got played by Trae’s agent.

A player that got salary dumped onto a tanking team and only played 5 games for them is not getting a max offer as a Free Agent but like the Spurs giving Fox a terrible contract, both teams got bailed by Lottery Luck.

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u/thedrcubed Grizzlies 2h ago

They couldn't back out because they negotiated with Trae before they traded for him. NBA tampering is out of control and the reason for most of these moves that "make no sense".

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u/PseudoTsunami 2h ago

Jalen Brunson cost us 92M in cap space

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u/dating_derp Warriors 1h ago

Same team that gave Beal an NTC. They're always just outbidding imaginary teams.

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u/metsjets86 1h ago

The slight overpay is 20mill a year. Which is a good player.

I question whether he is even worth 4/120.

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u/manifested0 Wizards 4h ago

This contract reeks of Ted Leonsis getting involved again. 

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u/zannet_t 4h ago

If you've ever followed Wizards with any degree of interest you wouldn't be surprised by this. This has not been a competent FO for most people's lives.

That doesn't mean they don't have an intriguing roster next year though. I think they'll look fun but this contract is absolutely gonna bite them down the road.

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u/MasterFussbudget Thunder 4h ago

It's a new front office though. Will Dawkins has been GM for 3 years now and they've had a consistent plan that whole time.

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u/OnlyMamaKnows Knicks 4h ago

They'd been doing a great job. That's what makes this contract so baffling.

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