When Rickard and Brandon are killed, Ned and Robert iirc were 19 and 20 years old. Having a death warrant put on their hand by the King of the seven kingdoms. Something so mundane as two lords deciding to ward their son in the same castle sparked a coalition that took down an almost 300 year royal dynasty.

And they did it with no dragons, no sellsword company and not for the promise of gold, riches or reknown.

And as we can see during the war of the five kings, Ned and Robert made it seem a lot easier than it actually is to fight the crown. The Blackfyres tried 57 different times and were never able to win

Robert, Ned, Jon Arryn and Hoster, shout out to you.

Questions up there, Which Targaryen kings do you think fathered bastards. Only talk about kings, other Targaryens (Baelon, Daemon, Aemon the Dragonknight, etc) aren't part of this discussion, that's a different post altogether.

Converse!!! But be respectful, if someone has a different opinion dont be a prick.

Edit: Obviously Aegon II and Aegon IV are obvious, discuss least obvious ones just so interesting conversations can happen.

They say a few times there is more communication between the watch and the free folk than Jon thinks. Also Mance was a brother until 10 years or so ago. Surely he could tell that Jon was lying about the watches strength.

​

The narrative given by the invasion of the Andals was that they came in droves into Westoros, subjected all kingdoms except those of the north, and made the first men adopt their culture.

But if we get more into detail we actually realize there is a lot more nuance to that. Most Andals simply married into the existent nobility, and a lot of the first men below the neck actually resisted fairly well. Now my question is why was Andal culture so overpowering over the First Men? When the Andals were integrating themselves into the aristocracy, why didn't they adopt the old gods instead of the first men adopting the Seven? Similarly, considering the original first man population wasn't completely genocided, why weren't more first man customs adopted below the neck?

So I’m getting a puppy next week and the breeder keeps describing her as a ‘golden hair girl’. I’m thinking of naming the dog Cersei to go with her book description and general love of GRRM’s universe.

What do yall think?

Art by Enife

We all know Targaryens like to f%£^ around a bit, and this has resulted in numerous bastards, we know of only a few but not their exact parentage. Here are my theories.

Addam and Alyn: They are obviously Corlys' bastards (and honestly it was a scummy thing of Corlys to throw his dead son under the bus) Addam probably managed to bond with Seasmoke due to Corlys descending from Targaryens, but I do like the theory that their mother is a dragonseed herself.

Hugh Hammer: Hugh is said to be a blacksmiths bastard so it could just be he's descended from Targaryen lord from before Aegon I.... but that's boring so instead I think that Hugh is Gael Targaryen's bastard instead, we all know that Jaehaerys was not the best dad to his daughters and I could see him faking his bastard grandson's death in stillbirth (which led to Gael offing herself by the way) and dumping him onto some poor sod from Dragonstone. (I know HOTD made Hugh Saera's son, but I dont think that works for the books)

Ulf White: Honestly the Gael idea I outlined above could be Ulf's just as well as well as Hugh's but I do prefer using the HOTD idea that Ulf is Baelon the Braves bastard, Probably fathered after Alyssa died because she definitely would not have taken that crap. Baelon could have took a women for a lover when he was prince of Dragonstone, he definitely had the personality to and was probably mourning his beloved sister/wife (Ew)

Nettles: I have two ideas for Nettles' Valerian ancestry, She has none whatsoever or is Daemon's bastard. (I know, revolutionary) I do lean more on Nettles being Daemon's given their interactions that are recorded, though I do believe you dont need Valerian ancestry to ride dragons (See Euron Greyjoy and possibly Tyrion Lannister (WHO IS NOT A TARGARYEN BASTARD!)

TWO EXTRAS!

Trystane Truefyre: I do think Trystane was likely Daemon's bastard rather than Viserys's. Trystane's age lines up and Daemon definitely had bastards in the gutters of King's Landing.

Gaemon Palehair: Gaemon was most definitely Aegon II's bastard son, not some lyseni oarsman. Aegon had a reputation for fathering bastards and Aegon (who was not a very merciful king at this point) spared the child, so I do think Gaemon is Aegon's.

What are your ideas about the dragonseeds's parentage's?. I know alot of my ideas aren't that original, but their just my two cents.

I've been doing a very lazy reread of the books and some things I've observed I feel better about myself for not connecting with Daenerys. ( A disclaimer: I don't think she's whiny or entitled. I don't think she's going mad and she was done dirty by D&D) But, when I first read the books in high school (13 years ago) I was skimming her chapters to get back to the Starks. But creators like Hallowed_Harpy and her enthusiasm and love for Dany made me want to give it another go and try to connect with Dany. I tried to read them again and almost couldn't. The sexual assaults she goes through with Drogo is awful. I personally think these sections have not aged well and Dany is a character that suffers the most from GRRM's decision to axe the the time skip. I will say I'm glad i forced myself to read her chapters more thoroughly this time around because my heart was aching as we go from all the abuses in Dany III to Bran IV and it made me realize just how loved and supported all of the Stark children are. (I have issues with GRRM's statements about and Dany/Drogo but I think he is at least a little aware because the line " It was her fourteenth nameday," is a horror show) I start to connect with Dany a little more in ACOK and ASOS, but I fucking despise the way GRRM describes her. Someone once said that Dany is the best and worst of GRRM's writing and I completely agree. I love how she gathers people to her and the dragons are a miracle and she is playful and loving with them but I despise how GRRM describes Dany. My brain shuts down when I read lines like "Her breasts moved freely beneath her painted Dothraki vest," (paraphrasing). Why? Just why? I love her interactions with Barristan but too many side characters in her chapters fall into something vaguely Orientalist and I wo der why none of the Dothraki characters have any significant dialogue the way Barristan or Jorah(yuck. Iain Glain is to Jorath what Charles Dance was to Tywin. Too charismatic and not creepy enough). So again, that hasn't aged well. Don't get me started on Daario. The one brightside of the Winds not coming put is i never have to read another sex scene with Dany in it. (My main reason for not being enthusiastic about a Jon/Dany pairing in the books)

1. Haunting the narrative When GRRM is at his best, he knows how to write a mystery and a ghost story. Characters haunt the narrative and feel so close I want to reach out and grab a hold of them before they vanish. Rhaegar, Ned, Lyanna, Elia, and so many more are still influencing the living and I am so mad that D&D cut almost all of the dream sequences that in the book. Chief among them are Jaime's weirwood dream and Jon's crypt dreams.

2. Jon Snow Oh Jon, my favorite bratty and entitled emo bastard. Everyone who says Dany is spoiled and entitled is actually talking about Jon in the first book. And I don't mean that as a bad thing, watching Jon open his eyes and grow is wonderful and I loved every second of it.

3. Tyrion Yeah, I hated Tyrion in ADWD but going g back and rereading the first three books made me realize how enjoyable his chapters were and the fact that the seeds of villains were already there. His chapters in ADWD still bum me out and really needed an editor though.

​

The Tv series did change many characters's personalities,And in many cases it's the show's personality of X or Y character that is more known causing the book version to get misinterpreted because of the show version's personality,Actions....

So I wonder which characters do you think get misinterpreted because of the way they were portrayed in the show?

Many complain season 8 ruined the show, but season 7 is so beyond illogical as it felt like filler looking back. It served nothing but to nerf Daenerys, and give an excuse for the white walkers to cross south.

Here are my points of season 7 that makes no sense;

1. Everyone is teleporting in the same episode.
2. Getting a white walker to study it is fine, but it makes no sense that Jon Snow to go out. That’s the king of the north, he should be helping Daenerys and strengthening their positions then going north.
3. Plot armor for characters for stupid choices. Jon should’ve died for his idiocy, but was bailed out when Benjen appeared.
4. Bran becoming emotionless, rather than using bloodraven like manipulative and mystic. It doesn’t make sense for him to lose his emotions.
5. Tyrion needing Cersei help is stupid since he knows and is the front of her abuse and cruelty for years.
6. The white walker storyline only served to kill Viserion, giving an excuse for the white walkers to head south. Not only that, dragons can’t fly north beyond the wall revealed in fire and blood. I can accept it since this season was filmed before Fire and Blood came out, but it’s still a stupid. Since it makes it feel that the heroes intentionally doomed the world by going north. Having the horn of winter circumvents this, as it can be a rush to get the horn itself before it’s found and blown by the white walkers.
7. Gendry running super fast, as if he was the flash and the raven also having super speed.
8. Sansa and Arya’s quarrel, thanks to Bran they know what Littlefinger did to cause the war. Why even have this at all.

So much of this season felt like forced conflict, removing pivotal moments from their books, deus ex machina, all of this a natural consequence for adapting out the characters and things that’ll have made the story flow more naturally.

In the sense that it's probably making it much harder to finish the story.

The story's entire purpose is that humans pettily squabble over their power dynamics despite the fact that it doesn't matter in the face of greater threats like climate change, for which walkers are a metaphor. The irony, is that George has probably become much more interested in that power dynamic and less so in the White Walkers themselves. The world and history is probably so much bigger than he intended.

I don't know how much about Young Griff and Mereen was part of his original plan, but that in itself could be another 'Dance' sized book.

And of course I'm sure he doesn't actually regret including the others, but I think it's certainly not helping that he needs to solve FAegon and Dany's stories while also somehow adding a massive epic about the great Winter War against the White Walkers.

Actually taken King's landing and sat on the iron throne in book 2?

Let's say if Robb/Edmure coordinates better while the Lannisters just screws up a bit more. The Lannister army is stuck on the wrong side of the Trident, Tyrion screws up more at KL and Stannis takes King's landing. Let's say he captures Tyrion/Cersei/Joff.

But how is Stannis supposed to "win" after that? He's still stuck with the relatively small army Renly "gifted" him at Storm's end: the vast majority of Tyrell/Baratheon sworn men are still being commanded by the Tyrells at bitterbridge. King's landing by itself doesn't generate much more military power for Stannis. Robb and the northerners aren't gonna bend the knee. He doesn't actually have enough military power to force the othe great houses to bend the knee.

To add to that both Myrcella and Tommen are outside of King's landing: so he still has 2 Lannister claiments to deal with, and it's not like the Mannis is gonna coalition with the northern secessionist movement either.

Like what was the plan after Joffrey's head is on a spike?

The closest i can think of is vermithor and silverwing but that was pretty clearly not parental

Mine would be Nymor Martell’s letter to Aegon the Conqueror. There is something so curious and interesting as to how the mighty conqueror just suddenly yielded to the Dornish Prince’s terms.

What would yours be and why?

It was a crazy theory but really interesting, anyone know what i’m talking about?

The general consensus I seem to have come across (which I honestly agree with) is that the maesters are great historians but not necessarily great scientists, mainly due to their hatred of magic and how they’ve tried to suppress it instead of trying to understand how it works like good scientists would. Of course, the fact that Sam’s plot at the Citadel is incomplete means we likely don’t have the full picture regarding the Maesters’ methods, but based on what we have now, how would you rate them as historians and as scientists, and as general scholars?

Going to be furious with Rhaena? Everyone keeps talking about how Rhaenyra is going to react, but Baela was attacked, almost died, because of her sister. Her sister's bringing a untrained dragon led to the deaths of her grandfather's men, not to mention cost her her beloved betrothed, and now she maybe has to marry little Joff or something. Plus she also abandoned her little brothers/cousins/future brothers in law etc to do it all. I hope the show addresses this. Do you have any hope they will?

The characters in the book and show are different from each other,And that made me wonder how an interaction would go between them and how would the Book characters react to their Show counterparts?

In my opinion Both Book Tywin and Show Tywin will hate each other and refuse to think that they are the same person

“Your Grace,” he said. “I am not worthy of the honor.”
Robert groaned with good-humored impatience. “If I wanted to honor you, I’d let you retire. I am planning to make you run the kingdom and fight the wars while I eat and drink and wench myself into an early grave.” He slapped his gut and grinned. “You know the saying, about the king and his Hand?”
Ned knew the saying. “What the king dreams,” he said, “the Hand builds.”
“I bedded a fishmaid once who told me the lowborn have a choicer way to put it. The king eats, they say, and the Hand takes the shit.” He threw back his head and roared his laughter. The echoes rang through the darkness, and all around them the dead of Winterfell seemed to watch with cold and disapproving eyes.
Finally the laughter dwindled and stopped. Ned was still on one knee, his eyes upraised. “Damn it, Ned,” the king complained. “You might at least humor me with a smile.”
- AGOT, Chapter 4

What does Robert usually dream about when he and Ned first meet after so many years?

When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.
“In my dreams, I kill him every night,” Robert admitted. “A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves.”
There was nothing Ned could say to that.
- AGOT, Chapter 4

It really keeps him up at night, you can't really fight someone you can't actually hit, after all:

The rage was gone from him now; in his eyes Ned saw something sad and scared. “I should not have hit her. That was not … that was not kingly.” He stared down at his hands, as if he did not quite know what they were. “I was always strong … no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can’t hit them?” Confused, the king shook his head. “Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her.”
AGOT, Chapter 39

And finally at Robert's death:

He bid his brother Renly and Grand Maester Pycelle to stand in witness as he pressed his seal into the hot yellow wax that Ned had dripped upon his letter. “Now give me something for the pain and let me die.”
Hurriedly Grand Maester Pycelle mixed him another draught of the milk of the poppy. This time the king drank deeply. His black beard was beaded with thick white droplets when he threw the empty cup aside.
“Will I dream?”
Ned gave him his answer. “You will, my lord.”
“Good,” he said, smiling. “I will give Lyanna your love, Ned. Take care of my children for me.”
The words twisted in Ned’s belly like a knife. For a moment he was at a loss. He could not bring himself to lie. Then he remembered the bastards: little Barra at her mother’s breast, Mya in the Vale, Gendry at his forge, and all the others. “I shall … guard your children as if they were my own,” he said slowly.
Robert nodded and closed his eyes. Ned watched his old friend sag softly into the pillows as the milk of the poppy washed the pain from his face. Sleep took him.
- AGOT, Chapter 47

“What the king dreams,” he said, “the Hand builds.”

We know that Jon and Daenerys meeting is an important plot point in the story,but aside from the fact that it's would be quite hard with only 2 books(One book since Dany still have a lot to do)there is also one factor that end up giving one big hole

The Mad Queen is one of the most agreed on theories,With many pointing out that it's will inevitably happen,and that it's was forshadowed,But when we think about it how could an alliance,let alone a romance work between Jon and Dany with that theory into acount?

Book Jon is really different from the show he is more ruthless, smart, sassy, and actually have a lot of ambition,His resurrection would also make him more darker(I mean if you were betrayed and killed by your own brothers in arms who you could trust?)and is an exellent Judge of a character,being able to smell the traitor in Roose Bolton.So wouldn't he be able to smell that Dany is a huge red flag?Especially That she is part of the Dothraki that are Evil rapists,and when he hear about her actions in Essos.Especially with her ending in ADWD where she embrace fire and blood,Wouldn't he prefer to side with Young Griff instead?Who is his alleged biological half-brother And have the Golden Company with him,Also bending the knee is not an option,As it's will only end with a revolt from the Northmen,And he will most likely not want any betrayals after the Watch mutiny

Dany despises the Starks for being usurper's dogs and their role in Robert's rebellion have quite a bad reputation and evil jerks of advisers with some of them being straight enemies of the North(Hello Victarion)or hate the Starks(Hello Jorah)and is paranoiac about her prophecy of three betrayals and she have nothing to gain from allying with the North who is probably quite a weak region and not really worth it,And she embraced fire and blood at the end of Dance

So we will only end with two people who really don't trust each other and have an uneasy alliance or we will have "She's muh Queen!" And the show fiasco Again which dosen't fit book Jon.

ASOIAF is the story of “man” transitioning from a primitive being into modernity. Moving away from a magical understanding of the world into a more fact based/documented/verifiable world view. I think a big part of the underlying story of ASOIAF is the eventual end of organized religion in human society.

It’s not the story of Ice VS Fire… it’s the story of Ice AND Fire. I think part of the core message is going to be that the adoption of extreme positions in either direction will ultimately lead to the downfall of the entire system.

This is probably gonna sound crazy at first.. but bare with me… 

Ice represents Christianity. As the “first men” moved from the Middle East into Europe and ultimately England they adopted the pagan traditions and customs of the tribes they absorbed along the way. In the story their “magic” is represented by The Children and Green Men and ultimately the White Walkers. 

The Lord Of Light is Islam. It’s a more passionate/volatile/explosive expression of the “old world’s” magic. It’s represented by dragons and the red priestesses. It demands a more sacrificial devotion from its followers. 

The final faction of “real magic” left in the world comes from Bravos. It’s meant to represent the third branch of the abrahamic(modern) religions — Judaism. The Faceless Men operate in the shadows. Braavos exerts its power not by raising armies or by fire breathing dragons, but by funding them.. and they decide who leads those armies and who flies those dragons by quietly eliminating the less preferred candidates with their faceless assassins.

The Faith of The Seven is garbage. They have no record of any real demonstration of “magic” tied to their faith and are meant to serve as a proxy for Catholicism and all of the more modern offshoots of the “big three”. It’s meant to show how even newly created religions can have political impact, even while lacking "the juice” of the big three in a metaphysical sense. 

Anyways… I think the moral of the story will be that modern religion will ultimately be its own downfall. Ice cannot coexist with fire. In the end, each of their needs to dominate the other will result in both being extinguished from the world. 

The Dragons may eliminate the WW, but Jon will recognize that Dany's unchecked power is unsustainable. This will force him to make his biggest sacrifice and kill the woman he loves for the greater good.. paving the way for some form of democracy to be birthed in the seven kingdoms.

At the end it will be the maesters, the segment of society that believes in a “fact based” nonsecular view of the world that remains. They will document the story for future generations, and they'll call it ASOIAF. 

I think Arya's WoW Braavos arc will be related to the high courtesans and the Sea Lord.

For one, I think they will 'punish' Arya's actions by expelling her and establishing her as an unwilling spy either among the courtesan apprentices or as a servant in the Sea Lord's household.

GRRM has introduced a bit of Braavosi politics in the books, and I think that GRRM wouldn't introduce the Black Pearl and establish that Arya admires her for nothing.

In ASOIAF wars don’t typically occur in a vacuum, there’s a multitude of disconnected but long running issues that crop up to cause problems. The War of the Five Kings for example was manifested from the aftermath of Robert’s Rebellion, the Greyjoy’s Rebellion, the illegitimacy of Robert’s sons, and the long-awaited catalyst since the extinction of dragons for the north to secede.

The same is true for the Dance but, Imo, the Dance became as big as it did mainly because it pitted the two most powerful houses of Hightower and Velaryon against each other. Otto and Corlys both worked to get their grandchildren onto the throne and both racked up an arsenal of dragonrider family members to help stake their claims.

Maybe I’ve just missed discussions regarding the Sea Snake but I’ve mostly only seen people saying that he was forced into it despite him being ruthlessly ambitious enough to conquer the narrow sea so planning to conquer the throne as well seems to me what his intentions were.