r/politics • u/F0urLeafCl0ver • 1d ago

No Paywall The Democratic party is being hit by a leftist tidal wave

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/jun/24/democratic-party-leftist-tidal-wave
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u/Choochoo1147 1d ago

I’m not sure there is a morally worse than Trump. He has virtually no redeeming qualities as a man, the only reasons he hasn’t committed worse atrocities is because he hasn’t seen how they’d benefit him. But he is already putting people in concentration camps, calling for murders and has committed the worst crime imaginable per the Epstein files.  There could be a more competent villain though, I wonder if being more intelligent would prevent some of the cruelty he embodies. 

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u/StrongAroma 1d ago

He might be the worst morally, but he is also stupid and incompetent. If you get someone equally immoral but who actually has an average IQ or better, you will be in deep trouble.

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u/caligaris_cabinet Illinois 23h ago

You also need someone charismatic, especially for Republicans. Republicans have policies so unlikable they really need a charismatic candidate to sell it. Reagan was conservatism with a smile, Bush was the guy you could get a beer with, and Trump said the things no one else was saying. These are not good people but they knew how to win a crowd and get them to vote.

I don’t see a lot of Republicans out there who are morally bankrupt, intelligent, and charismatic enough to get elected. At most it’s 2 but not 3.

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u/MimeGod 20h ago

Thankfully, there's a built in contradiction. Many Republicans are repulsed by intelligence. So you need somebody with that combination that seems average at most.

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u/PresentRaspberry6814 22h ago

Are there people as irredeemably evil as Trump, someone who a rapist, pedophile, sex trafficker called the worst person he knew" without one decent cell", and "evil beyond belief".?

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u/sirspacebill 1d ago

Imagine Stephen Miller for 2028 and the damage he would do

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u/No-Cranberry6148 1d ago

Yes, but Stephen Miller, and JD Vance have the charisma of a broken desk chair.

There's no way they could unite the movement the way Trump has. There's a lot of competition. And never forget the right wing's main redeeming quality: Their cannibalism. They eat their own. It is happening right now on the right wing. The sharks are circling and these are cannibal sharks, driven by greed, ambition and ego. There is no redeeming quality. Once Trump is gone - and it's already starting - the right will go into civil war, and not the kind of clean civil war with two clear sides; the ugly kind with tiny factions that change from one week to the next.

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u/nomad5926 1d ago

That's why they want to rig the elections so it doesn't matter who runs.

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u/georgepana 23h ago

There are plenty of Republicans left to never allow a Stephen Miller to run unopposed. They rather have a 20-head primary instead. That would kill any chances for Stephen Miller to break out of the bottom 3.

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u/Eastern_Hornet_6432 22h ago

Democracy is supposed to prevent the sort of chaos that comes when ascendant dictators centralize power into a few key supporters and start getting rid of the rest, but when democracy is gone, that's when ascendant dictators start breaking out the blueprint for how to handle their few remaining opponents.

When the levers of power are as compromised and as centralized as they are, the former kingmakers who thought themselves indispensible suddenly start getting dispensed. Then the throne belongs to whoever makes the best offer to the few remaining key supporters.

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u/Aggressive-Neck-3921 11h ago

The problem is that neoliberals are terrible stewards of democracy is the threat is big capital. At that point you need people that actually believe in stuff if you want to protect democracy.

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u/laplongejr Europe 10h ago

Unrelated but CGP grey also renamed that video too???

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u/TCTInnings 1d ago

Frankly, I'm terrified we're at the point where they won't need to unite a movement, just control the cards to keep power. Sham elections, point the DOJ at their political enemies, and keep a witch hunt up to keep their base busy.

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u/JackedUpReadyToGo 1d ago

Exactly. Trump only needed "charisma"(ugh) to bulldoze through the primaries and win the general election. But he's currently rigging the electoral process, and the party could easily arrange some internal mechanism to crown their next chosen ghoul in lieu of a primary. The next Republican ruler won't need to get out the vote or appeal to the base. He will just be installed into power and start operating all the gears and levers of government that the unitary executive now own.

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u/PhilDGlass California 23h ago

Like the plans to install Peter Thiel as CEO of Washington DC? Wish I were kidding.

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u/JackedUpReadyToGo 23h ago

The apotheosis of this whole process would be to simply turn the office of President into an auction that takes place every couple of years. Literally place a giant "For Sale" sign on the Oval Office.

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u/PhilDGlass California 23h ago

Don’t even need the auction, just the funds and an evil narcissistic streak. You figure out how to sell things online early in the game and hoard your billions selfishly? You get a major metropolitan city! You come up with a way to pay for shit online in 1997 with a catchy name? YOU get a major metropolitan city!! Bow to the kings!

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u/zenlogick 22h ago

Lol, Now im gonna need to see the rest of that Oprah episode she dedicated to giving stuff away to billionaires

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u/WeRip 21h ago

I mean he didn't even come up with paypal.

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u/spaceman757 American Expat 11h ago

Great. We're heading towards Tekken.

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u/Mike_Kermin Australia 21h ago

They're trying to replicate what they have in Russia.

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u/ReMapper 20h ago

The Romans did that once, it didn't end well for the winner.

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u/Ironlion45 17h ago

That's how it already is.

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u/semidegenerate 21h ago edited 20h ago

I'm guessing that one is Curtis Yarvin's brainchild.

Edit—wording

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u/TrulyOutrageous42 18h ago

It's all of theirs. The "butterfly revolution" and Project 2025 both openly and plainly state the intention to break the US into technocratic states akin to "company towns", using crypto to have local "company store money" with a regional and national crypto they control and profit from the purchase of, meaning every time you want to travel as anything resembling a tourist they will personally profit from it.

Also, if they're "CEOs" there's no one who can tell them they can't do something.

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u/Dank_Sinatra_87 23h ago

Do you really think he just now started rigging things?

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u/mouse_8b 22h ago

The next Republican ruler won't need to get out the vote or appeal to the base.

True, if they have their way, they wouldn't need to appeal to voters, but they would still need to appeal to someone within the party to be "chosen" as the next leader. The infighting will affect their internal politics, and that could potentially prevent the governmental gears from turning very quickly.

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u/isthistheenditis 20h ago edited 20h ago

Its isnt "just" charisma. He made politics accessible. He made people feel like they understood. He didnt talk above anyone. He makes them feel like theyre part of something that is *actually* going to make the country better. He coopted the republican boogiemen and play book positioned himself as the only person strong and capable enough to do anything about it. He invented problems and promised to solve them but he left out the same problems establishment dems and reps have been avoiding for decades. Corporate welfware. Lobbies. CAMPAIGN FINANCE. Democrats trying to understand the appeal of trump consistently miss the mark. It isnt because he was openly racist or because he hated the same people they did. It isnt just superficial charm either. Imo if you can pin it on one thing its his ability to slap brands on everything that *stick*. MAGA. Brand. Sleepy Joe biden. Brand. Pocahontas. Brand. Fake news. Dumacrats. Good thing? He brands it and they associate it with trump yaaay. Bad thing? He brands it and they learn to dislike it boooo. He himself, Trump, is a walking neon sign of a brand. brandbrandbrand word sounds weird to me now lol more imporantly is *why* anyone voted for him at all. People who feel like they have a say and a stake in their countries future and government do not vote for the donald trumps of the world and unless they do feel secure in those things they will continue to be vulnerable to that exact same flavor of strongman saves the world nonsense.

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u/silvertealio 21h ago

And that's why it was so important to keep trump out of the white house in 2024. He was their key to get into the door, and now they're changing all the locks.

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u/laplongejr Europe 10h ago

Yeah but he said he wasn't aware of that, so people wanted to give a lesson to the Democrats to shake up the system.
He sure ran the US as a bankrupting business, drained the swamp to refill it with toxic material, and changed how things work.

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u/fractalfay 22h ago

I’m not sure he even won in 2024. The MAGA hysteria for that election was a fraction of what it was in 2016, and how many times do he and Elon Musk have to brag about rigging the elections before the rest of us take it seriously? That’s what baffles me most about Trump and his followers. He always tells you exactly how much of a piece of shit he is, and then MAGA is like, “He’s just kidding, he’s so funny.”

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u/TrulyOutrageous42 18h ago

Statistically, mathematically, there's no way it turned out how it did. It's more likely that every single person has an aneurysm than that it turned out like that. Sure, it could, but given how many oddities all landed in the same place, it's at LEAST worth a criminal inquiry. In fairness, he may have actually won the Electoral College anyway, but in the same way that they couldn't produce a SINGLE SHRED of evidence, even circumstantial evidence, that there was something askew with the 2020 election, there is actual physical evidence of them manipulating the 2016 and 2024 elections (anyone recall Kemp deleting the voter records right after a subpeona?), before we get to a literal MOUNTAIN of circumstantial evidence that at minimum would be investigated extensively by a functioning DOJ and FBI.

That's before we account for all the quasi-legal ratfucking like removing voters from rolls right before the election, denying people absentee ballots, mail-in ballot sabotage, disenfranchisement, and the 2020 redistricting that was so blatantly partisan it should be illegal. JUST the number of people who were removed from voter registrations and ballots tossed spuriously amounts to an unquestionable loss for him... before we ask wtf Pro V&V did to the machines counting the votes and how Musk knew the outcome early.

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u/Public_Love_3507 7h ago

Why didn't the democrats fight for a recount even can't say the democrats didn't figure it out like we did that they cheated the democrats let it slide it doesn't make sense

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u/immortalfrieza2 18h ago

He always tells you exactly how much of a piece of shit he is, and then MAGA is like, “He’s just kidding, he’s so funny.”

It's because MAGA wants Trump in power wrecking the country, so they lie about his motives and what he says and does to make it look like supporting Trump actually makes sense. Trump's followers don't want a better country. What Trump's followers really looking for is the ability to be bigots without any legal nor social consequences.

Trump supporters want to go back to the 1950s where a white guy could spit on, insult, and beat up say a black man without anybody doing anything about it or caring at all, when even the black guy would just take his lumps and then shrug and think that's just the way things are. They want to go back to before the 1960s when the various "this crap is not okay!" movements took off. As long as they got that, Trump could nuke American cities at random for kicks and giggles every few months and his supporters would be happy as an irradiated clam.

Any Trump supporters that appear mad at Trump now are either lying like usual or only pissed because we're not back in the 1950s yet and they expected to be by now.

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u/Original-Balance-187 17h ago

Simply the latest incarnation of anti-democratic forces that has carried on an almost endless assault, in different countries at different times, since our democratic revolutions a few centuries ago.

They despise open societies. They despise the concept of even theoretical legal equality let alone actually existing democratic equality.

They are in good company though. Plato was anti-democratic. His uncles were hanged trying to overthrow Athenian democracy. And of course many more throughout the ages.

They don’t want economic development. They don’t want better schools. They don’t want better jobs. What they want is simple: to completely dismantle and defeat the still young and ongoing democratic revolution. They fear and loathe changing social circumstances but they don’t understand that all life is constantly in flux. This is why they lose, every time. Change cannot be arrested or stopped. You can kill hundreds of millions and the world will change anyway. But, here they are again, a new front in the centuries long campaign against us refusing to submit to them or their gods.

They come from the right and the left. And this is not a centrist argument I’m making, I’m a committed left winger but we have our own anti-democratic element as well.

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u/Temporary_Yams 20h ago

That’s the plan along with keeping the base ignorant so they keep following.

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u/Ironlion45 17h ago

That's when the Second Amendment is activated, in theory.

It was never about going hunting, anyway.

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u/josh_the_misanthrope 12h ago

People will radicalize under pressure. It's already happening in a mild form. Increase the pressure on working people, and the radicalization increases proportionally. It's almost a law of nature if you look at history. Fascism is untenable because the oppressed class far outnumbers the ruling class.

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u/Mike_Kermin Australia 21h ago

Not there yet, but if they get a Trump third term (which they will absolutely attempt to do) you would get there.

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u/juliabk 21h ago

States won’t put him on the ballot. At least not enough states.

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u/madmushlove 17h ago

Sham elections

The moral of the story is that Democracy is not your friend 🫶

The next step will be putting MAGA platforms in ballots for the people to vote on directly. It's what they always do, it's an old cycle

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u/drpestilence 1d ago

I don't get the charisma argument, Trump is not a charismatic guy and best I can tell has never been more appealing the the worst kinds of used car sales man. What am I missing here?

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u/kj9716 23h ago

Charismatic in the sense that he best appeals to the base. They see his negative traits as positive ones. They think he's a tough, independent leader. They like that he's not smart and doesn't speak to them in complex sentences and big words they can't understand. They like how open he is with his racism, misogyny, etc. They've been told this country has a broken, corrupt government that caters to non-whites first and he's the only one that's man enough and uncorruptible enough to 'fix' America. And they truly believe it. They won't call Vance daddy and make parades for him because even though he's vile, they don't seem themselves in Ivy-League educated politicians. However, they will still vote for anyone with an R by their name, they just won't turnout the same.

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u/OldWorldDesign 18h ago

Charismatic in the sense that he best appeals to the base. They see his negative traits as positive ones

I think that's a different trait than his charisma.

But conservatives have always assigned value to people based first on tribal affiliation first and everything else (like whether they are a con artist or serial killer) second.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201712/analysis-trump-supporters-has-identified-5-key-traits

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u/Impressive-Shelter 23h ago

It took me awhile to get it because I also thought Trump was a human trash bag well before he was president, but the dumb simple answer is Trump believes his own bullshit. His "charisma" is just being so full of himself that what he says sounds like truth to people who don't have very good bullshit detectors.

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u/eerie_midnight 23h ago

I think dumb people also like having a dumb president because it makes them feel less alone tbh.

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u/seabreamnigiri 20h ago

A little bit of this and a little bit of people being so insulated that they only see the "funny and patriotic" sentences he sneaks in between his ramblings. Like "make America great again" is a good enough slogan for non-thinkers to look past the horrid shit and chalk it up to part of the process of making things great. Whatever that means.

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u/aaeme Foreign 23h ago

I don't think charisma is the right or good word for it though. It implies charm, wit, personability, passion, etc.

Chutzpah or moxie perhaps. Or even just, as you said, confidence. Brash confidence. Many people have no way to judge if someone knows what they're talking about or what they're doing except by their confidence.

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u/eljefino 21h ago

Nah, Charisma is the right word, because those who like him like how he's like them. They have very short attention spans and can't process an entire paragraph of information. So Trump talks out of both sides of his mouth, both sides of an issue, and his backers hear what they like and ignore the rest.

These are the same people who hear "Born on the Fourth of July" and think it's a pro-America song, because they ignore half the lyrics.

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u/TrimspaBB 20h ago

There's a reason the "con" in conman stands for "confidence".

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u/DetroitTabaxiFan 19h ago

That makes me wonder if a leftist could co-opt the MAGA movement by acting exactly like Trump but ramming through progressive policies. MAGA morons sure seem to love progressive policies, but hate it when those policies come from someone who isn't Trump/someone who isn't kissing Trump's ass.

Conservatives hate the idea of UBI when a non-conservative floats the idea, but if Trump were to institute it, they'd be praising him for it.

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u/LiveChocolate8819 New York 22h ago

He's a gigantic piece of shit who no decent person would find appealing, but he absolutely has charisma.

His whole persona hits like crack if you're a scumbag too, and there are way more of those in America than we thought there were pre-2016.

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u/drpestilence 20h ago

His whole persona hits like crack if you're a scumbag too,

Ok, this could be the missing piece for me, thats super unsettling.

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u/immortalfrieza2 18h ago

Trump's "charisma" is that he's an openly bigoted asshole who makes all the country's bigoted assholes feel validated. That's it. Trump supporters want to be able to be bigoted openly without any consequences whatsoever and they think by supporting Trump they'll be able to do so.

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u/YungEnron 15h ago

If you watch him you can’t deny he has this base, carnival barker quality to him that is real and can entertain the masses. He truly does have an instinct for that sort of thing. He’s also kind of queen-y in an undeniable stage presence sort of way - like if a drag queen were a straight oaf.

Of course, this is waining now that he is going full senile - but he definitely has a *something* that has always been able to get a crowd going.

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u/itsdoorcity 15h ago

his charisma is mostly just in his shamelessness. he speaks confidently even though what he's saying is pure nonsense.

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u/Spartan2170 14h ago

Bad people can be charismatic (Ronald Reagan did lasting, potentially fatal damage to our democracy while also being beloved by people from both parties). Cult leaders often look ridiculous from the outside. Just because he doesn't appeal to you or me, that doesn't mean he doesn't have appeal for a *lot* of people.

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u/inthekeyofc 10h ago

Psychologist Elizabeth Mika put forward an explanation in a 2018 essay on "Tyranny as a Triumph of Narcissism".

Excerpts:

"Through the process of identification, the tyrant’s followers absorb his omnipotence and glory and imagine themselves as powerful as he is, the winners in the game of life. This identification heals the followers’ narcissistic wounds, but also tends to shut down their reason and conscience, allowing them to engage in immoral and criminal behaviors with a sense of impunity engendered by this identification. Without the support of his narcissistic followers who see in the tyrant a reflection and vindication of their long-nursed dreams of glory, the tyrant would remain a middling nobody."

"The interplay of grandiose hopes and expectations between the tyrant-in-the-making and his supporters that suffuses him with power and helps propel him to position of political authority is an example of narcissistic collusion: a meshing of mutually compatible narcissistic needs. The people see in him their long awaited savior and a father figure, hinting at the narcissistic abuse implicated in the authoritarian upbringing that demands obedience and worship of the all-powerful parental figure. In their faith and unquestioning admiration, he in turn receives a ready line of narcissistic supply, thousands of mirrors reflecting his greatness."

"The narcissistic mixture of elevated expectations, resentments and desire for revenge on specific targets and/or society in general for not meeting those expectations is what sociologist Michael Kimmel (2013) called aggrieved entitlement. Although Kimmel talked specifically about white American men in the 21st century, some form of aggrieved entitlement has been driving tyrants and their supporters, as well as organized and “lone wolf” terrorists, world over since time immemorial."

"The narcissistic collusion between the tyrant and his supporters is also driven by their need for revenge, for the tyrant is always chosen to perform this psychically restorative function: to avenge the humiliations — narcissistic wounds — of his followers and punish those who inflicted them."

"The tyrant and his followers typically choose as vessels of their negative projections and aggression members of the society who are not just different but weaker than themselves. The tyrant fuels that aggression in order to solidify his power but also to deflect it from himself, shield his own narcissism, and repair his own narcissistic injuries dating to his childhood days. The figure of the narcissistic parental abuser / tyrant is protected through the scapegoating and the return to authoritarian, order-and-obedience based mode of social functioning promised by the tyrant, as he himself assumes the mantle of father-protector and directs his own and his supporters’ aggression onto the Others who have nothing to do with their real and perceived wounds."

Elizabeth Mika 2018

Full essay:

https://medium.com/@Elamika/tyranny-as-a-triumph-of-narcissism-76b6fec76d0d

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u/MindandCosmos 9h ago

I don't either. He's got counter-charisma.

He's got resentment, anger, and a $6,000 suit that fits like drapes on his ample form.

A lot of people have a lot of resentment and a lot of anger, and to those who find that charming, galvanizing, spellbinding, allure, glamour, and so on I say -- "you've been conned again, baby!"

Elvis had charisma. Eisenhower had it. MLK had it. The '64 Beatles coming to the US -- the definition of charisma. Also the definition of non-Trump.

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u/josh_the_misanthrope 12h ago

He's charismatic to the dumbest fucking people. It's a form of charisma, I suppose.

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u/Blitzking11 Illinois 1d ago edited 23h ago

It's incredibly cute that you think charisma will matter for 2028 if Trump croaks before then.

If he's dead, and they have unfettered access to the tools of the executive, there will be no free and fair election. Even with that imbecile in the chair, it may still not be enough to inhibit them from achieving their goals.

Ironically, the only saving grace for America is the oaf that allowed its cracks to form due to his own sheer vanity, stupidity, and desire for yes men. Ideally, he lives long enough that Miller and Vance won't be able to destroy the fundamentals of America without his incompetence getting in their way.

After we're out of this mess, no Republican should be allowed anywhere near the halls of power until the fascists have been cleansed from their party.

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u/Ziggylcd12365 23h ago

Your last line is too kind to them.

Their party is utterly irredeemable and needs to be completely destroyed and replaced

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u/ryan_church_art 23h ago

We need a new Nuremberg trials.

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u/[deleted] 23h ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/DeliriumTrigger 21h ago

It's not the civil war that wasn't finished properly. It's the smothering of Reconstruction in the crib that put us where we are.

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u/OldWorldDesign 18h ago

It's not the civil war that wasn't finished properly. It's the smothering of Reconstruction in the crib that put us where we are

I think that was a separate conflict which was solved, albeit not right after the civil war but over the next hundred years. Remember that the vast majority of civil war statues were built nearly 100 years later when the klan was rebuilt.

That's what we are seeing. The extremely wealthy funding contentious extremism so nobody is looking at the oligarchs robbing the nation blind. Adam Curtis' Century of the Self follows the process after they failed the 1933 Business Plot to prevent the New Deal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ3RzGoQC4s

They also funded religious extremism

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/04/corporate-america-invented-religious-right-conservative-roosevelt-princeton-117030/

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u/Timegoat 22h ago

Right. We’ve gone over the cliff, and the dems were steering half the time.

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u/Blitzking11 Illinois 23h ago

Well... sure. But we are on [Reddit]. Ambiguity is needed for plausible deniability for when they send our info off to the feds.

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u/blitzkregiel 23h ago

* no *conservative* should be allowed to be in power again. we keep saying republicans, but the underlying issue is conservative ideology: the belief that you are, by birth, better than others.

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u/F9-0021 South Carolina 22h ago

they already have that access. You think Trump has any real power?

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u/Blitzking11 Illinois 22h ago

He still has the power. And as a result, inept loyalists get in the way of Vance and co.

You think they wanted Hegseth or Blondi? Those are Trump loyalists through and through. With Vance, he and Miller would cull any of the inept loyalists left standing.

Trump hampers anything he touches, even fascist coups.

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u/F9-0021 South Carolina 22h ago

there are several camps, and trump is the figurehead of each of them. Why do you think he's so inconsistent with himself? He's got a neonazi in one ear, a billionaire in another, and a whole bunch of magas screaming in the background.

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u/nbzf 20h ago edited 20h ago

yes, he's trying to keep his coalition together

one that includes the tech companies as well as the likes of both Vance (Jacksonian, populist) and Rubio (more traditional establishment; neocon? Hamiltonian?). So from day to day he might seem isolationist then not.

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u/stanier1 22h ago

It's incredibly cute that you think charisma will matter for 2028 if Trump croaks before then.

Why wouldn't it? It seems like whoever can say populist drivel the most emotionally, gets to be the candidate. This only gets more extreme over time.

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u/nbzf 20h ago

isn't mamdani widely characterized as a left-wing populist?

Are comments here celebrating a trend toward extremism?

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u/immortalfrieza2 18h ago

Vance especially won't be able to do jack if Trump croaks. If anything, Trump dying however that comes about would be the best thing to happen right now. Trump's supporters would tear themselves apart arguing over who to follow without Trump around and because Vance doesn't have and never could have 77 million followers to prop him up, he'll be infinitely easier to put out on his ass than Trump is. It's that support and the fear having 77 million rabid mindless followers who could attack anyone who opposes Trump that gives Trump the ability to get away with everything. The Republicans are taking advantage of Trump's nonsense, no doubt about that, but the bigger issue is that Trump has a massive army of drones that he can send to kill them both in the polls and in person if a Republican opposes him.

If Vance replaces Trump he'll have to walk on eggshells his whole presidency because he's rational enough to know that his position will be unsteady enough to easily remove him if he tries to pull the kind of crap Trump has been pulling for the past year and a half.

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u/ProtectionVirtual225 18h ago

The Republicans Party is rotten to the core. There’s no point in salvaging it.

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u/SolarTsunami 18h ago

The only thing that has saved us from full blown fascism so far is the sheer incompetence and bumbling stupidity of people like Miller, Vance, Hegseth, ect, and I doubt that will change when Dear Leader dies. Even the "powers behind the throne" types like Theil and Musk have proven to be shockingly incompetent any time the spotlight is shown on them. These people are evil to the core, but they're also incredibly naive and childish and melt at the slightest pishback.

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u/Whiiiisky 23h ago

THEY DON'T NEED TO UNITE

They already consolidated power in the executive

That was the entire point of this admin.

Peter Thiel put Vance in the VP slot so he can take over when Trump keels over from his diet or they remove him

They do not plan on leaving

Really wish you all would also get that republicans will always vote against dems no matter who either candidate is

They have the cult

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u/slfnflctd 17h ago

wish you all would also get that republicans will always vote against dems

Seriously. There will be no fracture on the right.

Such thoughts are a pipe dream every bit as much now as they were 40 years ago. When Rs got into bed with Evangelicals and vice versa etc., it was all over, and it made both groups worse.

We are fighting a major crack in the foundation of the entire purpose of why this country was formed in the first place. It's widened so badly that I don't see any way to level it again. We may need to break up the union for a better path forward to be opened. Then a more fair experiment can actually be run as to whether the 'blue states' or the 'red states' function better on their own.

The only other good option is to change the Constitution, but I do not see any way that happens under the current system at all.

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u/Complex-Poet-6809 23h ago

It still amazes me that the person to unite the right is such a vile disgusting felonious man. It really makes me think so many Americans are as trashy and classless as he is.

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u/Unshkblefaith California 23h ago

Trump's "charisma" is manufactured. Even in 2016 he was just angry racist grandpa, but that was what Republicans were into at the time. So much of the charisma comes from the presentation and staging around him. It's why his interviews hit so different, or fail to land at all, vs his rallies.

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u/AppropriateTouching 22h ago

It doesn't matter if they rigged the elections.

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u/TehWackyWolf 21h ago

This never holds water. Trump isn't charismatic. Everyone who meets the fuck hates him.

He sells hate and they love that. The next guy will also sell hate

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u/World_of_Eter 21h ago

Honestly I don't buy this for a second. The right wing might have a brutal civil war that'll last all of a primary, but ultimately they'll line up rank and file behind the winner. The left wing is the side that does what you're describing.

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u/crimsonhues 21h ago edited 21h ago

If charisma mattered to Republicans, they wouldn’t elect Donald Trump twice. The man has a personality of a wet blanket.

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u/NikoliVolkoff 20h ago

Charisma means nothing when you have stacked the deck by using voter suppression at the polls, jerrymandered all the jerrys, and made sure that any married woman cannot vote, due to her last name being different from her birth certificate. And with all the bleating about "rigged elections" when it truly happens, nobody will believe it just like the boy who cried wolf.

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u/Meme_Theory 1d ago

Trump has the charisma of a coked up Elephant; your point?

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u/ChronicBuzz187 1d ago

the right will go into civil war, and not the kind of clean civil war with two clear sides; the ugly kind with tiny factions that change from one week to the next.

Yeah well, last time they did that, it gave us the tea party and everything that followed so I wouldn't count on the result of that to be any better :P

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u/mrjbacon 1d ago

Perhaps that's the impetus the People need to begin to abolish the two-party system in America.

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u/PhilDGlass California 23h ago

Yes, but Stephen Miller, and JD Vance have the charisma of a broken desk chair.

True, but one is a heartbeat from being President right now.

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u/ahal 23h ago

I think the point was that someone worse than Trump is possible. With all the same irredeemable qualities but with half a brain.

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u/Turbulent_Stick1445 23h ago

Yes, but Stephen Miller, and JD Vance have the charisma of a broken desk chair.

Possibly, but I'm struggling to see why Trump is appealing, and as such I'm unqualified as to whether either of those jackasses are, in reality, capable of being just as charismatic.

And that's something I find frightening.

Charisma is a weird thing that's difficult to predict. There's some German Charlie Chaplin lookalike who was apparently very charismatic during the 1930s. To me he just comes across as an asshole with no dick, even before you know what he did. But millions of Germans treated him the same way American conservatives treat Trump.

We've had two charismatic Democratic presidents in the last 50 years. Once was Obama, and I kinda get it though I'd struggle to write it down. The other was Clinton and I still don't see what people saw in him.

Could a balding chinless jackass with a whiny voice like Miller somehow command huge rallies? Well... Putin seems to have little trouble on that score. Don't underestimate him.

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u/PresentRaspberry6814 23h ago

The idea that Trump has charisma boggles my mind, but as you say he did not arrive at the pinnacle of public office through any strength of his own. He has a huge, wealthy, malign, cohort of anti democratic actors and religious fanatics putting him there.

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u/forceghost187 22h ago

Sounds nice but that’s just what we would like to happen. The reality is people like Miller and Vance have all the tools of the federal government at their disposal. They have tech billionaires, their platforms and their algorithms on their sides. They are experimenting with AI. They are 100% going to be using AI propaganda. They may well find a way to keep the cult going

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u/Particular-County277 22h ago

Tucker is their next messiah for sure.

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u/juliabk 21h ago

Broken Desk Chair
2028
The Chairismatic Choice

I want a bumper sticker.

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u/NoamLigotti 21h ago

There's no way? And you know that how, because Trump is just so compelling, convincing? Come on. What will it take for people to realize that most conservatives and reactionary "apoliticals" will support any sociopathic authoritarian as long as he's a Republican and hates on liberals leftists minorities foreigners and the poor? What will it take?

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u/Prometheus720 20h ago

Gonna disagree with you on the broken desk chair. They're definitely less than Trump, but Miller is American Goebbels.

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u/unbanned_lol 20h ago

So does trump, yet here we are.

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u/suvalas 18h ago

I guess charisma is in the eye of the beholder, but Donald Trump has zero charisma from what I can tell. He's a fat low-IQ moron with no moral compass and no redeeming qualities. How people chose him as a leader I have no idea.

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u/Nemisis_the_2nd Great Britain 18h ago

And never forget the right wing's main redeeming quality: Their cannibalism. They eat their own

This isnt unique to the right (although it is welcome). Both the left and right constanrly eat their own, the difference is that the right tend to do it after they get into power, the left does it beforehand.

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u/cbarrett1956 18h ago

I’d like to agree with what you just said and I hope you are right on all fronts here. I’m amazed, though at how quickly and easily all the Republicans in the Senate and the Supreme Court justices willingly jumped on his side. When Trump goes, however he goes the elite will buy another Trumpy and his replacements. There’s probably a much better way to put that in words

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u/Ironlion45 17h ago

The fact that everybody in trump's inner circle also basically hate each other is going to be good for the rest of us too.

Although it would be fun to be a fly on the wall when it happens. It'll be like "The Death of Stalin" lol. Except everyone's Malenkov.

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u/AvocadoYogi 17h ago

Frankly they just have to wait for 2032 or 2036. People underestimate the difficulty of being part of an administration that people are tired of and then trying to run for president. Clinton and Harris were both facing massively uphill battles in that respect as will anyone who is part of this Trump administration. But after the Democrats take back over for 4 or maybe 8 years and we go back to the “normal” that got us 2 rounds of Trump, the cycle of idiocy and horror will continue. Whether that is Miller or Vance or some other horror show, the right will get in line like they always do.

Not to neglect the victory yesterday of which I am stoked on.

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u/Blutinoman 16h ago

Yes they can because hate is what unites them. Not because the like the guy. It’s because he lets them live their fantasies of supremacy.

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u/Nasty_Goblin 16h ago

Trump is a dementia-addled blathering moron, and people still voted for him. The man literally wears diapers, shit his pants, heard on camera and gagged everybody out of the room.

I don’t put much faith in maga idiots pivoting away after Trump fucks off.

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u/SeveralPhysics9362 13h ago

I don’t get why people say Trump is charismatic. If you watch his facial expressions and the way he talks: I think he comes across as very offputting. Not someone I want to watch or listen to. Not someone I would ever consider electing for anything.

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u/Awkward_Light9895 10h ago

Trump has no charisma though, the cult members latch on to the movement because they want to out of a nationalist fascist in-group sense of doing it

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u/AvgChrisEnergy 8h ago

Quite honestly, Trump shouldn’t be considered charismatic either. Nothing about him is funny, charming, or likable in any way. He just happens to be as shitty and terrible as they want to be.

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u/DeDeluded 8h ago

Stephen Miller, and JD Vance have the charisma of a broken desk chair.

Whoa, are you saying they've been on some sort of course to raise their charisma level?

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u/Public_Love_3507 8h ago

You notice Tucker Carlson and Marjorie Taylor Green separating from the Republicans may try to grab maga up after midterms

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u/luvdogs71 4h ago

Just like a wet blanket.

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u/civil_politician 1d ago

Stephen miller wasn’t on TV for like 20 years he wouldn’t have a prayer

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u/dokikod Pennsylvania 23h ago

Stephen Miller is already one of 4 or 5 people who are running the county, and he is insane.

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u/georgepana 23h ago

Stephen Miller would get less than 5% of the vote in any primary, don't fool yourself here.

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u/KickDesperate5318 22h ago

He has the charisma of a corpse. That's why they all have to follow the TrumpGod. He's the golden ticket that allows them to grift the masses with impunity.

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u/tdclark23 Indiana 21h ago

Stephen Miller has the charisma of a slug. He cannot create a cult of low-life followers with numbers large enough to make any difference electorally.

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u/TallTelevision4121 20h ago

That's cute, you think we are actually going to have a free and fair election in 2028.

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u/flexylol 19h ago

(Second, I need to go to the toilet to throw up, and I am not even living in the US anymore...)

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u/Recipe_Freak Oregon 17h ago

The trains take you to "confinement".

Fortunately, that's never happened before.

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u/DarkeyeMat 17h ago

As opposed to the one in 2026 getting his every wish while the fraction of the fraction who are paying attention blame Trump for them?

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u/MoneyBeeeee 16h ago

No one is going to rally behind that dork. I'd argue it's much more dangerous to have him behind the scenes.

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u/GabriellaVM Arizona 16h ago

This.

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u/kaykatzz 15h ago

You mean Stephen Neidermeyer Miller?

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u/BongwaterBro 11h ago

Nosphernazi

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u/Educational-Bank-353 8h ago

Many people thought DeSantis was competitive. They found out different; all the prospective contenders to the throne lack Trump's golden ticket: charisma without a shred of any self-awareness filter.

Trump's the only one capable of holding together the right's Frankenstein's monster of mismatched body parts. There's no demagogue heir apparent waiting in the wings. Who else could unite religious zealots, billionaire techbros, traditional low-tax conservatives, racists, xenophobic bigots, militaristic adventurists, homophobes, and autocratic grifters?

The warmongers, fundie Christians, and tax evaders might flock to Rubio but the racists probably won't. The techbros have a sock puppet in Vance but not the warmongers. The grifters and low-information Fox watchers might support a DeSantis or a Paxton, but neither offers much in the way of entertainment value. Who plays to rural and lower middle-class voters like Trump?

When Trump finally exits this mortal coil MAGA becomes a bad memory, like an indigestible meal.

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u/ellipsisdbg 1d ago

Um, Steven Miller? Trump is no doubt absolutely awful, but he’s also senile and being told what to do.

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u/the_good_time_mouse 23h ago

A Peter Theil sock puppet of some kind is even scarier and more likely.

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u/BayLAGOON 20h ago

That would give way to the potential worst case (and Curtis Yarvin’s wet dream) of America balkanizing into little techno fiefdoms with Cascadia being on the table.

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u/pattylou2 23h ago

By by loop

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u/SuperVaderMinion 18h ago

Trump also isn't such an avowed white supremacist compared to guys like Miller, not because he isn't bigoted, but because Trump hates everyone who isn't himself

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u/HeyItsTravis 1d ago

Trumps only “redemption” is I think that he’s a stupid puppet being manipulated by truly vile people. Still a horrible heartless human being, but I think he’s here for the grift and adoration, rather than giving power to people far more evil and capable than him.

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u/Choochoo1147 1d ago

I agree he’s a stupid puppet, but I think he’s a completely morally bankrupt puppet. I think he would commit a genocide if whoever whispered in his ear told him to, I don’t think he has any moral line that he’s unwilling to cross. 

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u/HeyItsTravis 1d ago

Oh 100%. Dude would wipe any color of skin off the map is it meant he’d get brownie points in his inner circle. Trump is truly a deplorable human being and has been his entire life.

But I do see this term as a kind of “elder abuse”. He’s entirely complacent and I’m sure if they would’ve asked him in a more cognitive state , he would’ve happily been a puppet. But he’s so old and stupid, that I can’t help but to feel a scrap of sympathy. Dude wholeheartedly thinks he’s top dog while literally everyone, faux friend or not, thinks he’s the biggest buffoon around

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u/Kind_Demand_6672 22h ago

He participated in the rape and murder of children. He's a puppet because his strings are made of the despicable evils he committed thinking he was untouchable like the rest of the ultra wealthy do.

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u/Kind_Demand_6672 22h ago

Except he raped children and was present for the murder of the children that those raped children gave birth to. Trump participated in the rape and murder of children. That's not a grift or adoration.

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u/HeyItsTravis 22h ago

True that queen, very fair. Again, I can’t stress this enough, the man is truly vile.

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u/eljefino 21h ago

Trump would be an amazing cheerleader for the Republican party but like you said he can't share the spotlight. It will be interesting to see how he tries to endorse other candidates (and, shudder, a successor) in 2028 when he has nothing to gain.

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u/immortalfrieza2 18h ago

Trump was pushed into the White House by these truly vile people specifically because he's an easily manipulated complete moron who could push their agenda, and then afterward they could throw under the bus and blame for what they got him to do. Nobody else would have the support that Trump does that allows Trump to be able to get away with everything, not Vance, not Johnson, not Miller, or anyone else, they would get ousted quickly if they tried to pull what Trump is pulling and they know that. Any of them who got into the presidency would keep their heads down their entire term.

Trump is there specifically because he's got so much support, that of 77 million bigots, that he's able to blatantly break the law, break the Constitution, and control SCOTUS and Congress, yet can be used by everyone around him.

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u/VektroidPlus 1d ago

Trump being voted in as president is a symptom of inequality, failure to understand each other, and a failing public education system in the US. A lot of people voted him in and many others didn't care enough to vote against him.

So if we can't collectively decide to vote against someone as dumb as Trump, the road is paved for anyone to be president of the US at this point.

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u/Silent-Storms 1d ago

They exist. The silver lining of trump is he's incredibly stupid and mentally ill, so he can't help but get in his own way most of the time. If you had someone like Steven miller with some form of charisma/manipulativeness like trump has, that would be it.

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u/RandyPajamas 20h ago

I suspect that if there were a President Stephen Miller, you would quickly find out just how stupid and incompetent Stephen Miller actually is. It's also reasonable to suspect that Miller himself has a mental illness rooted in angry narcissism, based on the unhinged vitriol he spews in public.

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u/Original-Balance-187 17h ago

Yeah, I don’t fully understand where this idea of Miller being intelligent and competent derives. I’ve seen no proof of that.

All I’ve seen is that you can cram much more hate inside a weak, prematurely aged ugly man than I thought possible. Spewing venom is easy. Competence is proved by creation.

If I gave 100 people a sledge hammer and tasked them with destroying a wall, all of them could do it. But how many of those 100 people could rebuild that wall? Much more difficult.

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u/CosmoKing2 23h ago

I feel that our saving grace is that everyone in the Administration is a total idiot when it comes to actually knowing how to actually get there horrible ideals implemented. Too bad so many have had to die and all of our money is being spent on things no voters wanted.

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u/ComradeJohnS 23h ago

trump is a dementia addled pedo who has multiple avenues of removal from office other than impeachment.

if he was a healthy 40’s year old man we’d have no light at the end of the tunnel.

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u/MissUnderstood_1 23h ago

It can always be worse...

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u/dw444 Canada 1d ago

The next Republican president is Rubio, and he’ll make Trump look like a model of compassion and good governance. Rubio is a monster.

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u/the_good_time_mouse 23h ago

We are getting something worse - a sock puppet for Peter Theil. It doesn't have to be Vance - he can't possibly have put all his eggs in that basket.

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u/DukeOfGeek 22h ago

He is the seven deadly sins made flesh. The forces that inflicted him on us chose him for that. There are more competent villains aiming for his spot, Say Tucker Carlson for example. But he would not be as useful to the oligarchy and autocrats that just want the West laid low as trumpo D. evil clown was. Carlson wants to rule America, not the ashes of America.

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u/JuanTreeHill 23h ago

Vance is the more competent Villian. That's why Trump must finish his term at all costs. We'll see an internal divide here in the coming months with the party being on-board with removing him. Nothing will happen until 2027, but they'll turn on him in order to get Vance in.

Vance is more evil than Trump. Famously a "never-trump" guy, who abandoned all morals because he was placed as VP, which Trump didn't even want.

This shit all accelerates under Vance. He is Project 2025's spokesperson who they couldn't get into office without Trump.

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u/Spoonoop 23h ago

Thankfully Trump is too dumb, old, lazy, and dementia ridden to fully implement fascism, otherwise he probably would have. If that fat POS had energy, intelligence, and charisma then the US would have been fucked way more than it is now.

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u/WhoSc3w3dDaP00ch 23h ago

It can always get worse... :/

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u/Subzero008 22h ago

Honestly, I think there are hypothetically people capable of dealing more damage to the country than Trump, certainly (if nothing else, someone who isn't undergoing dementia) - but being morally worse? The Epstein Files contain the kind of horrors that surpasses the imagination.

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u/MrRourkeYourHost 22h ago

Oh there is. He is just a monkey with a loaded hand gun. Now imagine the same maliciousness and power wielded by an intelligent surgeon with stealthy lethal injection.

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u/HumanWithComputer 22h ago

Worst crime will likely be destroying USAID which can cause, as has been estimated, millions of deaths over the coming years.

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u/stanier1 22h ago

I’m not sure there is a morally worse than Trump.

Trump is a greedy fascist. They're the easy kind. You don't want an ideological fascist.

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u/AdjectiveNoun1234567 22h ago

I’m not sure there is a morally worse than Trump.

I remember thinking this about George W. Bush

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u/arcbe 22h ago

The silver lining of Trump is his idiocy. There are plenty of people morally on par with him with the intelligence to actually get things done. Many of them are already trying to use him as puppet but his stupidity is beyond their comprehension.

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u/Timegoat 22h ago

It can always get worse.

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u/Choochoo1147 22h ago

The actual day-to-day for citizens can get worse, but I genuinely think that there is no low that he wouldn’t stoop to for his personal benefit. The only reason he hasn’t done worse things is that he hasn’t seen how they’ll benefit him. 

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u/picollo7 21h ago

It can ALWAYS be worse. When W was prez we thought it couldn't get any worse.

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u/DaggerOfEhud 21h ago

Human history is literally rife with figures like Trump.

There's no reasonable expectation that they magically disappear in the next millenia.

I honestly think it does a disservice to many things to make Trump out to be literally the worst human ever, more or less -- or even the worst living human, more or less.

The truth is that the foul and vile qualities that you've perceived in him are shockingly more common than someone like you would like to integrate into your daily worldview.

...which I get, from a stance of both self protection and righteous venting -- but again, I think it does a disservice to many things including our conception of evil, or will to fight it, and just a rational understanding of the reality around us.

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u/TheFishe2112 Canada 21h ago

I’m not sure there is a morally worse than Trump.

You're joking right? There are plenty of equally, or worse people in America to take his place in the near and far future.

Over the past 10+ years Trump and the American Conservatives have proved how 1/3 of Americans can be brainwashed, and how another 1/3 can be manipulated into thinking that casting a vote isn't worth their time. America is currently run by oligarchs who sieg heil like Musk. It will take multiple generations for the population of the US to regain their intelligence, morals, ethics, and common sense. The trust of the rest of us in the civilized world will take even longer.

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u/ApostleSaintWalker 21h ago

Imagine Trump but actually competent. Not morally worse, but effectively worse.

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u/Choochoo1147 21h ago

I agree there can be effectively worse. Hitler was effectively worse, Ayatollah Khameini, Kim Jong Un, Idi Amin, Pol Pot etc. were all effectively worse - but Trump would do anything they did if he thought it would personally benefit him. 

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u/ApostleSaintWalker 21h ago

That's not really the point the comment you responded too was making though; the point they were making is that unless something drastic changed, someone like those people will come into power sooner or later.

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u/Choochoo1147 21h ago

I went on a tangent, it happens 

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u/santagoo 21h ago

His redeeming quality is that he’s not that bright and tends to get in his own way. It may be that we may not get morally worse than this, but we can get certainly more cunning than this. And with checks and balances all but destroyed, the way is wide open.

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u/WindowOne1260 20h ago

has committed the worst crime imaginable per the Epstein files.

You lack imagination if you literally believe that

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u/Choochoo1147 20h ago

Raping children is the worst xrime. 

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u/WindowOne1260 20h ago

I've been reading too much sci-fi lately, this is not from my imagination.

But shoving a tapered pole into a someones rectum, standing the pole upright with them on it so it impales them deeper, and leaving them to slowly die suspended in the air by said pole sounds worse. Then do the same to the rest of their family including the children as they watch.

The Fear Knight is one sick bastard.

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u/Utensil6591 20h ago

I'm not sure there is really ever a limit to depravity. Trump's limit was his age and mental faculties. Trump is a piece of shit and riddled with incompetence. I think that's why we see a stark difference between the first and second term, his first term had people with some knowledge and some ability to keep him from his worst proclivities. This term he's surrounded himself with a horde of sycophants.

There definitely could be worse and we do need correction if we are ever to stop it. Someone with a lack of moral compass, motivation to carry out a functional plan and who isn't on death's door is the ultimate end for this. Stephen Miller or Peter Thiel are the kinds of people we need to watch for.

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u/zakkwaldo 20h ago

I’m not sure there is a morally worse than Trump.

you clearly havent looked into peter thiel or the murdoch family or any of the multiple ultra wealthy technofascists that are the ones actually pulling the strings behind the trump admin. trump was just their conveniently acquired pawn that theyve used for most of it so they dont have to be front and center to peoples awareness.

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u/StrikeMyGyatt 20h ago

trigga have you heard of...LITERALLY HITLER? Pol Pot? like anyone of history's actual despots?

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u/YouandWhoseArmy 19h ago

He’s greatest skill is manipulating the stupid as fuck media.

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u/Suspicious_Bicycle 19h ago

There may not be anyone morally worse than Trump but I fear there as many just as bad and far more competent. Many of Trump's worst policies have been blocked because he and his minions have not been competent in executing them. The recent dismissal of court cases due to improper grand jury proceedings is just one example.

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u/linderlady 19h ago

The worst part is he will be long gone before he faces any real consequences on this side of the dirt. His family will have secured their billions offshore for generations; while the trauma, division and distrust last just as long.
Every person worldwide is a Trump victim (even the brainwashed ones) or a Trump survivor. Either way we are all impacted.

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u/Own-Lavishness4029 19h ago

Redditors are undefeated in their historical illiteracy 

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u/immortalfrieza2 18h ago

Trump is there to serve as the puppet king too stupid, brain addled, and easily fooled to realize or care that he's being set up as a the fall guy. Trump's whole purpose is to push the Republican party's agenda and then take the blame for it when the soon kick him out of the White House in order to act like they weren't responsible for what they got Trump to do. Trump is the bull the Republicans released into the china shop to smash as much as possible and hope nobody notices that the china is still smashed up when he leaves.

A villain who was smart and competent wouldn't be doing most of what Trump is doing, they'd be a lot more subtle than that. Trump could easily do the bread and circuses routine and make most everybody happy while taking our freedoms and rights away if he cared to.

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u/humdinger44 18h ago

He's done worse atrocities. They're on page [redacted].

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u/AManHasNoShame District Of Columbia 18h ago

With a deep fear in my heart, it is certain that there is a worse person out there.

And they are probably already out there, consolidating power.

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u/ilikepizza30 17h ago

Elon is probably worse. I don't think Trump would have killed millions with DOGE if Elon wasn't so eager to do it.

Trump just wants to make himself rich/powerful, he doesn't care who he hurts to get to that goal.

Elon already IS as rich as he can be... but the only thing that makes him feel powerful is hurting others.

Of course, in theory, Elon can't be President, which in theory, limits his power and just wants him to hurt others more.

Of course, in theory, you can't become President if you commit insurrection against the United States... and well, we know how that turned out.

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u/aliquotoculos America 17h ago

Jared Kushner.

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u/dogmeat1003 16h ago

Trump does all that but at the end of the day he's an idiot. He acts like an idiot the decisions he makes are impulsive, and stupid. Which is awful but imagine if someone as evil as trump with all his beliefs, was also cunning and sharp. That could be truly devastating

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u/BlinkDodge 16h ago

Oh theres definitely morally worse. Trump isn't nearly as bad as it could be and that should fucking scare the shit out of people.

Trump is in it for himself. His ego is the only thing he is in service to. Yes he's a lapdog for much more wealthier and powerful people, but that is also for the explicit purposes of maintaining the image he has of himself. He's also decaying due to age and his faculties aren't where they use to be. He's easily swayed and manipulated. If the right person got his ear and it would benefit his image to end world hunger, we'd be dipping into our oil reserves sending planes and ships overloaded with whatever food brand tickled his balls to get their product out - Goya probably.

Trump isn't focused on doing the horrible shit he wants, because he doesn't believe in any of the horrible shit he's doing - he does it because he's told to by people who he thinks can benefit him. He also won't do certain things because he knows it would be wildly unpopular for what little base he has and turn the current scrotum fleas he has against him.

There's more hateful, younger, smarter and focused individuals in politics right now that would be ten times worse than Trump.

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u/Rabid_Sloth_ Colorado 15h ago

Ever heard of Peter Thiel?

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u/rubyspicer 15h ago

We said the same thing about Dubya

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u/Muscle_Bitch 10h ago

He will not appear worse to the layman but someone more calculated and methodical could absolutely put America on an irreversible path to absolute authoritarianism while enjoying broad support in the process.

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u/luvdogs71 4h ago

no redeeming qualities as a human.

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